| (Click on a 'Start Time' to view the video) |
| 00:00 | foreign hi you lost your shirt that looks a bit better can you hear me can you hear me yes I can can you you can hear me can you a second it tells me every time I connect it says there's something wrong with you your microphone |
| 01:03 | that's all your speakers or something but there isn't excuse me just a sec okay well it's been a busy busy few days on emails trying to keep up with it all I would like to try and find a way not to have to get so many of them oh uh yes I guess it's being a member of all these groups it looks for a bit lots of I can't find myself today I'm really if I could put a is it about engineering uh into a filter because hardly any of them are they're knew all about the politics and the essays yes |
| 01:51 | um tricky but I suppose um I could start um he's suggesting that um the noack ones I start saying please keep it to doing to do with we can't just restrict it to engineering because of science as well but I think we could um suggest that politics goes on a different group so it sounds and Engineering uh I interchangeable and identical you you need both of them uh but there's an awful lot that really nothing no there's nothing to do with either of them yeah how about the emails on energy yeah yeah |
| 02:39 | um I began working on energy in 1973 I remember um the nodding duck that's right my father was talking about it then when I when I was uh it really is a very nice way they falsified to estimate for the Fairly rate of the Marine cables and there was a cable to orkney which was laid about the time they canceled the program which would have failed by their numbers nearly 200 times and it's not failed once more than two orders of magnitude of um corrupt decision making um yeah good evening Chris good evening and high Sev |
| 03:32 | hey hi Cliff yeah thanks for that link by the way Chris um from uh Elko ilco oh yeah yeah it's only fairly recently come out yeah it looks very helpful uh print it out ready to be red hmm yeah I mean as I was saying to Stephen it's been a very busy time on the emails yeah I think um the uh no action related organizations email things sometimes seem to go mad yeah it's almost a full-time job keeping up with that let's learn anything else exactly yes and I still haven't replied Stephen hi Stephen have you considered how your |
| 04:28 | sort of things could be used to actually mix the waters and thereby bring up both cool water and nutrients to the surface and brighten it yes certainly uh it's actually been simulated uh um the the there was a university in Sweden that got paid money by Bill Gates to simulate that and what happens is that you choose the mixing ratio at the bottom of the of the Dan tube to decide how much mixing you want and then the mixture Rises up until it meets a a level where the density is the same uh the density will depend on |
| 05:08 | temperature and salinity so you have a way of controlling how high it gets and what you need to do is to get it to rise up to where there's enough daylight to trigger the the phytoplankton and uh it spreads out horizontally so you've got you've got you can even adjust it because you can adjust the the aperture of the of the exit tube uh and so you can choose how high you want to get it and what's the the expected diameter of of the the object well the ones that we worked on and initially were 100 meters I'd like to |
| 05:45 | have the diameter being half the wavelength yeah and then uh this imposter no um discovery not Discovery Channel uh intellectual Ventures asked me to just design ways of making them uh and they didn't say how big they wanted so I worked out a scheme for building them as big as you ever want so although I was talking about 100 meters to start with we could easily go bigger than that if we want to uh there's a uh the structure is made in water and you have a ring of things that are producing um the the fabric a bit like a spider |
| 06:32 | making a web and it you can have any size you want you can taper it as you go down it sounds um basically you're using Wave power just to um bring nutrients and cool water to the surface that's right and that's really really good energetically I think so uh it's also nice to have a very slight positive pressure inside the tube if you suck it from uh above where most of the energy is you suck it then the tube will collapse but if you have a slightly inside positive pressure then it knows what shape it's supposed to be yeah and |
| 07:12 | what what height above water would it they typically be uh um very little you don't mind if it goes over the top I think it probably would be about a meter of freeboard but you you want to be able to adjust for growth of biological material on the top so it doesn't actually sink yeah right because that's not critical there's a there's another very similar design for collecting plastic where that is critical where you want the waves to break over the top of a of a big ring and move plastic across and but not let |
| 07:53 | the plastic go out again and you might well be able to make it out out of marine marine waste plastic floating around well yes that has to go through a factory and be used again yeah no or even just just make on site in the in the great great garbage patch yeah it would actually find its own way to the great garbage patch and then it would fill up and the more garbage is inside the more the waves are attenuated so they don't get across so there's a very interesting bit of hydronomics which is that there's a downward force in the |
| 08:27 | crest and in the trough of a wave if you jet the right freeboard and so you've got a way in which all the stuff will go over the top and be collected inside right excellent hmm I'll send you the papers please do okay we tested a model that we'll be doing uh uh a hundred cubic meters of seawater a second at 100 scale right and this is a discussion about the the downweller is it yeah it's upwelling rather than done okay it was originally in at cooling uh uh it was a workshop um just after Katrina and we were |
| 09:19 | throwing together ideas for um how to stop another Katrina I think that Marine Corps building is better because you've got much more control of where it happens and when it happens but it would have worked we were getting hundreds of gigawatts of cooling uh from each of them um conceptually it sounds similar although different scale to what motion-based um what they call it husband-based Solutions have got but their tubes are very much narrower they're only a few meters yeah no there's nothing there's no no upper |
| 09:54 | limit to the size okay well we we can talk about this some more yeah um the best thing is if I send you the papers and then you can read them and then I don't have to try and do a word a word picture okay uh good morning well good yes good morning good afternoon good evening everybody um here we are again um well welcome everyone uh so I know we want to talk about this new website um you want to talk about that um Anton so uh let's put that on uh so no website and Bruce Parker and Bruce yeah Anton Bruce uh |
| 10:47 | okay what else do we want to talk about today let's all go and fill a glass and have three cheers to Ecuador who have done great things yeah okay um all right ecuadors we can talk about that a little bit yeah um I did offer a couple of things Clive to you which I don't know if you've got time to include them but one of them was talk about your climate arcs uh proposal oh yes oh yeah [Music] does fall under the London political Amendment and also um the concept of using it um to rewild the ocean as it says on |
| 11:31 | your website for that yeah yeah but that is my my comment on that are predicated on the assumption that you're looking at the ocean gyre's areas to do it and if that's not the case then I would not say anything about uh that because that in my comments are all about that uh sorry then we we shouldn't say anything about ocean and Giants no I'm I'm saying yeah okay trying to rewild the ocean gyas yeah then my my comments were going to be would not be relevant right okay yeah um that logo by the way we want to |
| 12:13 | change that to say um cooling the oceans rather than rewilding the oceans uh so but uh the website makes it a bit difficult you have to change the graphic this could be the right size um so that's that's going to be helpful John McDonald is are you here John can't see John uh uh he wanted that to be discussed so anyway he'll see that um on the recording so it's really what the um the rewilding or whatever you want to call it climadox um is really in two parts it's first of all the protocol which you've got there |
| 12:49 | but then there's also a concept and how it might um might be used yeah uh Concepts on how it might be used I think you said so there's something about that yeah yeah okay uh so John will definitely be pleased with that because he wanted me uh some thank you for reminding me he wanted that discussed uh we have uh Hans uh vandalu thank you for joining us today Hans I think you we've seen you in other groups uh so probably many people already know you but maybe not everybody um do you mind saying very briefly uh |
| 13:27 | just give a very brief introduction please yes of course um I was also those of you that were at the London um uh Albedo enhancement Workshop you may see me there um I've since been in touch quite a lot with um uh Robert Stuart and of course Steven Salter I've been working with for quite some time already and also connection of Sir David King I'm not always able to join these uh weekly meetings but I'll try to sort of dial in whenever I see in the email exchanges that things that are relevant for the political Arena and the |
| 14:00 | attention Arena which is society and business uh to check in and I saw the um the petition to world leaders that you came up and just exclusively to uh to Robert because I know I'm best on the line I shared with him some things that we've been doing already since uh cop 26 uh where we did not send a petition but a letter signed by four people sir David King sir David Attenborough Walter vandir as some of you may know because he presented the plan B that we need in addition to the science Arena and myself |
| 14:30 | to people like John Kerry from stimerman's um alak Sharma who was the Secretary General of course 26 and a few other senior leaders who were there so that is much more hour work I mean I take my hat off for all the scientific work that you do but of course it's like a triangle and a triangle's got three corners and that's the basis for the progress or the pillar that we want to do the scientific arena is very important but it cannot do without the political Arena because if you want to build a 500 horsepower engine but |
| 15:04 | there's no drive train frame or are no wheels or there's no roads that entry will stay in your Laboratories yeah important to build the engine obviously but we need the drivetrain that's the vehicle which we package it and we need the regulatory environment which is like the asphalt road over which that vehicle can drive towards where we want to go I hope that's a bit of an introduction that that's great uh Hans yeah we've often kind of uh bemoaned our lack of uh connection to politics or to The Wider |
| 15:34 | world and um I've invited media people we haven't really had many if any that I can think of so far um but uh your political connections uh could be very valuable to us so yes great to see you thanks for being here um because the political Arena cannot work without a technical solution either it's uh it's as far as that's concerned this is a true form of symbiosis great yeah excellent yep okay um well as you mentioned uh me an email with requests to follow up as it's just 6 a. |
| 16:12 | m here in Australia I've only just uh seen it and I look forward to to reading your email hands and following up thank you very much I'm aware of the time difference I'm glad that you uh linked up with John Blackburn and I suggest that we have perhaps a smaller call on those topics that we uh mentioned in the email later on as well during as well wonderful thank you okay and um so uh please everyone let me know if you could see another new person that that's Sarah via lady uh said she might be joining |
| 16:47 | um okay um so we make an agenda to discuss uh topics what else is there anything else we would like to discuss today with I think three cheers to Ecuador but we'll hear a little bit from Brew about that but might not take too long um so anything else Yeah Yeah Chris sent it a link to uh elko's Rollins latest paper and that might be of interest to some folks I I read it um I'm assuming Chris read it and then sent it um but it's it's really well done and thoughtful and maybe we'll get discussion I would say if you haven't |
| 17:31 | read it then it's probably a bit um premature to try and discuss it but I don't know how many people have read it because there's a lot in it yeah yeah I I um I haven't read it yet um I think we know a lot of that but I'd still want to read it citizen we don't know uh so this is all about ocean fertilization um yeah not just it's a ocean CDR generally I'm sorry ocean CDR sorry Ocean City sorry Moto what else as well ocean alkalinity examples features in it as well it's not just fertilization at |
| 18:05 | all right what I've we've become very interested in with climate arcs um is um the uh emissions of DMS dimethyl sulfide uh the smell of the sea which um ends up um nucleating Marine clouds or certainly helping to because it oxidizes eventually to become sulfuric acid aerosol which is very hygroscopic it absorbs water vapor from the air and helps to make um Cloud droplets um which of course cool the oceans well when they're low lying um does any any so I I just have a general question really does anyone know |
| 18:43 | how to calculate DMS I've seen some papers on it um is anyone does anyone know an X we tried to contact between um paper how Dryden okay yeah so um I'll dig it out and circulate it but he's um very focused on the surface atmosphere interface yeah yeah so the recent paper that came out earlier this year you're talking about Broome yeah yeah some very interesting work that I mean I I do interface with her quite often um and um yeah his his work on how Plankton 0152 um impact the ability of the surface layer |
| 19:30 | to actually evaporate change the rate of evaporation due to the amount of oils that get released um but anyway it's it's I I highly recommend it it's it's it's a very interesting read okay so um well that answers that for me uh anything else if anyone wants to delve into that a bit more there's that link I sent to you of a whole set of papers all about the plot hypothesis that generates the DMS um to a journal that was published a few years ago now but it's probably the most extensive reviews of the whole business |
| 20:10 | I think that's been published okay um I might have missed those papers from you okay it's a journal called environmental chemistry it's a actually published in Australia um and almost an entire issue of a journal was full of basically they were doing a sort of a look back 20 years after the original hypothesis was published and reviewing it is I'll find the link and put it in the chat okay great thank you very much okay um um anything else I'm finding finding it hard to extract anything else maybe |
| 20:45 | there's enough there maybe these conversations will end up being quite long about the website um okay let's discuss the website then um Anton um do you want to fire away I can bring out the website um I'm gonna just say I want to say just that Bruce has been doing great work he's got um quite a lot of progress made sev's been chiming in um and I'd like Bruce to give a little updater you know kind of color to um where he's at and then and then I want to come back to me after he's done |
| 21:22 | with that and explain kind of where it's going to go next and which has more relevance than um than I previously thought it might so obviously um just give a little update on um right did you did you want to say something for Bruce Bruce speaks Seth I think Bruce should speak first okay all right yeah probably the simplest thing to do is be to take a few steps through it Seth sent me a bunch of documents and so the sort of first phase says let's take these you know the three sets of documents and just put them up as a web |
| 21:58 | page just so people could take a look at them um so they're there and then you can figure out uh where now where do you want to go next how do you want to you know this is the first cut uh you can sort of see how you can display data on on the on the web uh now what makes sense we've got this up there so how do you update it what new stuff do you want to put on is this the right information what else do you want so it's just a starting point to start figuring out how the website might work I could show a couple couple Pages if |
| 22:29 | you want me to yeah why not I could bring it up here um okay um I've just just that's it there isn't it yeah there you go and um the things I've concentrated on were the uh proposed Solutions of projects and a set of references just go to propose Solutions and this is a document that said put together and so I said okay I just took whatever text he had and he's got 16 Solutions so you just click on one and then it provides information about the proposed solution so that's right off right off the PDF |
| 23:06 | that he that he had mm-hmm and so again this is the idea what you can you know what you can put up there interesting question some of the some of the text or the some of the of uh uh weird characters but anyway so that's just an example of if you got Solutions and this is one way of displaying them um they all work pretty much the same they just click click on it and when it expands it put images up there uh just a way to help help people understand how they work what they're about mm-hmm yeah looks excellent |
| 23:42 | hmm and again it's very very easy to change where you should add to stuff uh if you want additional information we can it's videos work that's just again that's a start okay so I took that same information go on to projects and yeah so this is what I mentioned can you make that a little less less uh there you go that's better uh there's a problem with all that there's too much text on here I want to work with you all to figure out what feels make sense but these are there are a total of the two |
| 24:15 | spreadsheets and they're like 50 or 60 of these things and what I've included here just the my six or seven that I could link back to sev's documents of the proposed Solutions and these are the sort of things we might someone's got to decide which are the most active ones which are the most important ones um but it's the same color coding so if you click on the link at the left if that opens up additional information because what's not showed on here which Link at the left oh the down arrow |
| 24:43 | one of the down arrows oh here there you go yeah so for instance there was not enough room for your ideas people are comments so let's show below and then the other fields are those um from the from other Solutions uh proposed Solutions so again it's adding stuff to that and the question is you know which which ones do you want to show and what information do you want to show on there and do you want any additional information and then you want to start having people comment on this let's say say it's good |
| 25:12 | say it's not good uh where do you want to go from here with this okay this is for not really so much for public viewing but for putting the information in and for for us for other scientists and Engineers to review it then is that right Bruce it's well we can discuss how you you want public to see it or just want the reviewers to see it uh that's when those you know that's a discussion topic uh yeah I think the public um I can imagine being a member of the public would just be completely overwhelmed by this and just quickly go |
| 25:45 | somewhere else yeah but yeah what what will the public what does public want to see about these things again that's they need that kind of discussion I I think they they need well if I just say for myself that they need very you know um clear uh easy to read text that that doesn't require much knowledge um so and things who who are we interested we're interested in people potentially funding these things as well isn't it that's they're the main sort of non-ex non-scientists that uh that we want to |
| 26:22 | attract yeah okay so one more to end and then the final one is the uh Gupta references up at the top menu and then the reference for specific project and then so the idea is there the resources that are available for the different proposed Solutions and this is the only one that there's a yeah the word doc that had the different uh things from buoyant flake so 30 some odd different uh documents and the idea is you have the documents here and it's got a link you can download it you could you could upload |
| 26:54 | these documents to a particular to the web so people could look could then click on the link and see them um again so that's again I just took what things seb's working with and said put up a website now what do you want to do with it right that's a great resource and they're coming out and I had a good look through the website earlier on um on the home page and in the initial description taking close point about uh general public coming into it um we call ourselves nature-based Solutions but actually look in the in |
| 27:26 | the intro to this it's there's not a lot about nature yeah I just made that up from some place I'm not sure where I got it here we go yeah so I have no idea I forgot where that came from but again this is this is the thing if you want if you want to take you need to have a home page so some discussion of what should go on the home page okay so I think it'll be useful to but you know a paragraph in there that really sort of picks up particularly on the safe stuff and the point Flakes and the the the objective to bring back and |
| 27:59 | restore nutrient Cycles so the Plankton levels of all sorts [Music] um return to where they should be yes so if I'd be to write something about that if someone could just write up a thing what what are the main points you want to include on a home page that I can see about getting finding some other stuff for it again it's just sort of a place where this is we want a home page what do you want on it yeah I had to say I think that I mean I had a quick look through this earlier on and you know it's a great structure it works |
| 28:33 | and you click on stuff and you go places and there are references and there are sources I think that uh almost certainly not uh in a group like this but somebody uh in a smaller group needs to sit down and go through the text because I think there are some yeah I don't know where Bruce you've got all the text from but there are some conflicts within the texts in the various different pages uh and uh and there needs to be some kind of policy decision about the kind of messages that no act wants to be sending |
| 29:02 | out there uh and and those messages will depend upon a clear understanding of who the publics are that we're reaching here so the publics are the general public uh the lay reader that's one thing and if the publics are technical readers it's another thing and it may well be that we need to have two um sort of parallel things going for different audiences um yeah but I think that as a start you know it's always the difficult thing here is always started with a with it with a blank page and I think you've |
| 29:30 | done a fantastic job in getting it to this stage I'm really really uh impressed and now it's a case of just you know others I think sitting down and and refining the the content it's how you want who the audience is and what information you want to get from these people you want to how do you want to get feedback do you want feedback so now so this provides sort of mechanism of how to start talking about it um will you please put hands up and intervene because some people have been waiting for a long time it ends up |
| 30:01 | okay so um do you want to speak Seth no no sense first yeah yeah okay um regarding Bruce's uh thought that there's too much text on the um on the that scoring sheet he's absolutely right um imagine that all the material we want to gather both the general Public's taking republics and smaller groups is um uh is being held in one large spreadsheet or or database um I think we can uh separate that that scoring sheet up into uh 405 different elements one one the descriptive bit I think we use a a standard reference for each for each |
| 30:54 | technology then you could have the the um uh the description and Graphics in another and and the key one to help us uh prune down this list which is going to be too long should be those um uh seven or eight criteria scored I think and that should be able to fit on on most people's uh laptops and maybe even phones and and then you have the the the references now things as as Bruce had them so I think it can be done it just needs needs a bit of uh reworking to see how we can make this look cleanest and not too cluttered for |
| 31:41 | people look at any one one screen at a time and uh Bruce has done a great job I I that that first graphic which showed uh the stratospheric stuff I I've suggested to Bruce um we need to expand that so that it shows the the different areas where increasing the Albedo on or increasing the thermal radiation on and uh make it more General but otherwise it's it's beginning to look really great thanks okay and Chris please okay um well I'd love to start with the home page um I found the text on that frankly |
| 32:25 | very confusing a member of public who reads that will be totally confused is talking about our video modification and Albedo um uh what's the other words there's another phrase that's used in there as well that whole text I think apart from the first paragraph and the last paragraph needs to be rethought because to me it didn't make sense at all and it's just a placeholder Bruce is saying it's just for now it's just a placeholder uh so he's waiting for somebody it needs to be boiled down a |
| 32:55 | lot and it needs to be much clearer because at the moment I found it totally confusing but anyway that's that's just the home page um I think the other thing is the page we uh so was just discussing is all about Sims projects we don't include at all at the minute on the website any other techniques that other people have got so much better Advance things like MCB uh Steven's being involved with yeah I think we need to be quite careful about not equating concepts with actual other techniques that are already been researched through |
| 33:30 | a significant extent and therefore have much more knowledge about we've got to be quite careful otherwise by implication you may be used to saying the ones in that list of sets are equally as um viable right now as the ones that Stephen's been involved with I don't think that is a fair uh comparison at all so I think that's something that needs to be thought about how we present the different techniques because I think we need to cover the other things other than sales ones as well oh yes I think |
| 33:58 | it's important yeah um and then I have included a lot of the other ones as well they just weren't shown shown by okay and finally um I think the other thing that we still need to have a look through is the noet consensus version three because I don't think I'd seen that version before and there's still a few comments on it I think that still needs a little bit of work on it as well and not to do it now but you know our offline can we can uh work on that great so that's a good checklist of |
| 34:28 | things that still need to be done um hands thank you Clive um if I just I have not read this paper I've only seen what's been just been shown on the on the on the screen but if I looked at that triangle uh graphic and the the web at the the table I can say up front that this kind of text would be very good if you would want to have other scientists so people like us you know all well unfortunately mostly white men except for man I think uh to also co-sign this so this would be for your peer group this would be completely unsuitable for |
| 35:10 | the public at large it would be unsuitable for political regulators and it would even be unsuitable for potential funders I think for funders who tend to finance these kind of things they do have a technical interest but of course they do not have your knowledge base so it has to be simpler and I had a meeting with Achim Hoffman I don't think he's online now but you all know him from Oxon and he of course is quite well Advanced because he's got two things that many of the other techniques including the |
| 35:42 | Marine Club brightening that I'm very much pushing for he's got something that all these others do not have he's got two income streams his technique can earn him carbon credits and he can produce hydrogen which you can either use as a saving because you don't have to buy energy or you can sell it so that of course is very good for simple funders I think what we all need is Not Mere funding Capital we need conviction Capital we need the kind of money from wealthy people or Foundation that say what these people are doing is very |
| 36:19 | important I cannot quite understand whether it would work but hey I pay my insurance premium on the 1st of January as well even though I'm not sure whether I'm going to have an accident or not they should see what you are doing as an insurance against the bad future and there is money in the world that does want to do that but they have to be explained in a way that they can understand it but they would look at it in a slightly different way they would really want to see if I put my money in this is it likely that it might work so |
| 36:50 | it needs a fairly technical uh proportion of content policy makers will need to hear many other things they need to hear about what are that as possible unintended side effects what is the retention rate of what you're doing you see so they're looking much more at political risks and then the public at large well maybe you breathe such lofty air that you do not meet many normal people but they would not be able to understand 10 of what you've written down which is not a problem either because with them you |
| 37:24 | speak a different language what I really really liked and I did tell Robert tulip because I think he was brilliant when we were at Cambridge he actually said well we have to reverse the priorities because when your house is on fire you do not call the Villas obviously they're needed later on but when your house is on fire you call the fire engine or the fire brigade and if you speak with the public at large in those kind of terms like our ecosystem is on fire obviously we have to treat the cause we just reduce emissions and remove |
| 38:00 | emissions but right now we have waited too long the time to impact of the measures proposed also at cop28 will simply not come in time so it will go through the one and a half degrees which you all know John rockstrom has said is not a Target it is a limit it's a limit through which we cannot go so if we will go there the consequence will be very dear and you know that better than anybody else so what I see what your work is doing it's extremely important I talk about your work when I talk with politicians and Regulators as these |
| 38:38 | people can pick shave the heating overshoot and this work needs to be done for a couple of decades where treating the cause will not bring down the temperature and therefore we have to artificially limit the effects by treating the symptoms on top of treating the cause now when you talk with regular people I mean not even regular regular but at least reasons be intelligent people but not your type of people they do understand these kind of things they do understand calls they do understand symptoms they do understand risk they do |
| 39:14 | understand unintended consequences so all I want to say now do not try to make one website and one piece of text a fit all instrument you really have to do the groundwork to think about the target audience and then write the text for the target audience in mind and that probably means that you will have to make like four versions of this but this version that you have up now I would say is an excellent version to also get Chinese and Indian and perhaps African scientists on board because they are your peers intellectually and |
| 39:49 | academically and also your kind of thinking but do not go with this kind of stuff to either a regulator or the public at large or even fund us okay thank you very much hands is very clear very helpful Anton you're music muted can we uh hear from Stephen first yes uh there's a a thing that worries me a bit about the the text it's talking about Marine Cloud brightening where you put some salt in to this into the clouds and it makes them whiter now this is a really quite a bit bad misunderstanding the uh what you put up is a salt |
| 40:33 | fragment that's about uh 0.8 of a micron in diameter and this is a seed it's a condensation nucleus on which a much much bigger Cloud drop grows okay if you read it as it is you just think it's the salt that's doing it now the projected area of the cloud drop that grows on the seed is about A Thousand Times Higher than the uh than the original condensation nucleus so it's not the salt that's making the reflection it's the much much bigger drop that grows on the salt okay uh I think anyone who looked at it |
| 41:10 | at the moment would think oh that's not never going to work we're never going to put up enough salt it's the seed okay so that's another piece of text to be updated yeah yeah um okay Anton thank you Stephen yeah so those some good feedback guys um it is a draft it's a 1.0 and um we're still working out Bruce is still putting a lot of time in and it's going to evolve from here so so please try to just consider that things that can change will change layouts can change all kinds of things |
| 41:44 | can be added and improved on it and they will so this is really just a look at where it is now much like you would look at a prototype in the early stages of engineering right okay so where does it go from here right so we have all these ideas and about different constituencies and different language and all this stuff um I have been for the past two months I've been in talks with a private Equity Group and I don't have an announcement on the funding yet that will hopefully come in the next three weeks |
| 42:18 | but one of the things that they want to do I describe this engine which I'm viewing it as an engine less so as a website um I described it to them and they think that that is needed and they are interested in funding it so when we talk about where this can go for Nowak I want you guys to consider a couple things this is a kernel of a website that can evolve to something even larger now will this particular website evolve to something larger I don't know yet we have to have some discussions around that Bruce and I and Clive uh and Sev |
| 43:01 | are going to have to have some discussions around that some other groups we might want to bring in and maybe bring them into a discussion to see if we can evolve that is it a business well we're going to get it funded as if it is so we're going to have to do an incorporation and a basically a spin out to make that happen um I will be over the next three or four months I will be laying the groundwork for an articulation of this as a business and why it's relevant and personally from my perspective the |
| 43:35 | reason I'm excited about this and where it can evolve to is because I believe we in our society right now we lack intergenerational collaboration right everybody on this phone call is older than me and I'm old as dirt so that's a problem I have other communities of young people and there are no old people there I'm the oldest person and they don't talk to each other and we have a lot of energy and talent coming up in younger Generations and we have a lot of talent in senior level creativity and knowledge and |
| 44:13 | expertise phds people that have enormous wealth of intelligence and wisdom and experience and getting those two communities to collaborate on different climate Tech stuff to me is why I'm excited about this and I'll I'll just case in point if I could find 20 young people who are ages 20 to 32 to work on sub stuff uh I'll climb over a barbed wire fence to get those people on board and I believe this next generation of utility websites can potentially do that and the private Equity Group also thinks |
| 44:56 | that that would be a we're calling it a goose right because if we get enough groups that have great ideas and different levels of um development and then you get young people involved and then you get some Finance mechanisms built into it you have basically an engine to accelerate the collaboration and therefore the development of different climate initiatives whether they be Tech or political initiatives or other initiatives and you have then the potential to accelerate our reaction to climate change and that's why I'm really |
| 45:29 | excited about it so more to come over this but I want everyone to know that I'm I'm working on the finance side to try and get this to grow and this PE group I think is going to play a big role in that all right PE group uh private Equity yep yep okay what's the the thing about Goose that I don't know what that means you you know do you want an egg or do you want the goose okay right yeah like a golden release gold mix yeah okay um I've just got a couple of very specific things um uh so so because my question was there's |
| 46:05 | all these changes of text and you know different types of text for different uh audiences do you have um because you said before that you're going to have uh uh media writers you know people that do writing is that still part of the plan part of the plan you have to have these guys rewrite stuff maybe that's consistent yeah yeah I'm asking you yeah yeah if this goes the way we want to go we'll we'll be adding collaborators there'll be people included to help with their specific expertise and writers are |
| 46:36 | needed so yes yeah great okay that's great so so often we'll say this needs to happen but then there isn't a mechanist there is a mechanism for for um and it's going to obviously take a lot of organization as well um I just one more thing and then Robert Chris um one more one more thing um do you think what do people think we can learn from places like Amazon you know you get an Amazon you look at a product and you want to see whereas this or that about it and uh it sort of it tends to be on one greatly long page and |
| 47:09 | it sort of Scrolls you down to the to the other section of the page do you think there's scope for that rather I'm thinking about phones you know you don't necessarily want it just flipping into some other what I don't like is labyrinthine websites you know uh it's easy navigation works for me for me if I speak to myself yeah okay um Robert Chris please yeah I actually would both you and Angel have touched on uh the points that I wanted to make but I just want to make them again in a way because I think they are critical to the |
| 47:41 | to the progress of this I think because I I have to say I'm really inspired and enthused by uh Anton's vision and and how he sees this could work and and I think it's a necessary development I think it's great what we have to recognize is that noack is a a and you can shoot me down if I'm wrong about this but no acts of Fairly informal group there's no sort of formal structure a leadership structure and it's also as as Angela has pointed out it's uh not a very diverse group and uh |
| 48:09 | this um this website when you cut away all the detail the website is a Communications tool and and we need uh again particularly particularly picking up the points that I made earlier and that were reinforced very much more eloquently uh by hands um the the truth about her is that we need to be very clear about who our audiences are and the messages in these need to be written for those audiences um and there will be quite different messages trying to achieve different things a different not just it's not |
| 48:43 | just a case of dumbing down for the people that are not um as well versed in the science they actually want to know different things and and I suspect that in this group looking at the faces on the screen we're probably not the best ones uh to uh to to kind of get under the uh into the detail of that and so critical part of this is going to be as Anton progresses uh is going to be identifying uh the people that can help um create that uh very audience focused text and presentation that will deliver uh the sorts of uh ends that Hans was |
| 49:21 | alluding to for the for these four uh critical and quite different communities and their respected needs so you know so I don't think we want to get too hung up in this group about trying to draft this stuff and rewrite it and so on and so forth I think we what we need to do this initiative having started is somehow we need to kind of direct it or actually put it with me help Anton direct it in a positive direction so these various elements come together so that we can provide him with the support that we are |
| 49:55 | capable of providing him with and uh and giving him the the space to seek out elsewhere the support that he needs that we are not able to provide okay yeah I definitely want to do that I want to want to help Anton as much as we can um Anton do you uh see it as four separate websites or sort of four different views of the same material um I I don't see it as four separate websites um I I want to kind of back away from getting into any detail yeah yeah okay all right that's fine but leave it leave it at that yeah but but but |
| 50:37 | Hans and Chris are both correct in that it is a really unusual mix of constituencies that some will have a really strong interest and others who have almost no interest at all so we we want to play to where what the functionality of the website is really trying to do and then having perhaps a page or two that can just be this landing page with some information for the general passerby okay thank you Hans at least I want to comment Anton as well because you are the engine builder um but I think the actual building sort |
| 51:15 | of the the design we are now actually at this moment in time we work with a company um with reasonably good rates to build the the BCI the blue cooling initiative website and uh one thing actually you said uh uh Robert Chris uh well we should stay away from that well you should not because what this website Builders can do and also the young people that Anton is talk about they can ask the questions that they worry about they can then formulate the questions but you are needed to give the answer to those questions |
| 51:43 | but I think indeed you may not uh you may not be able to think of all the questions that the product might ask you some questions you know are very ignorant questions but if they ignorant questions are felt by a lot of people you have to address and deal with them and take them away you know to decline it I on the website design which is not my expertise either but I would agree with Anton ideally it would be one website where you've got like a general entry with steps on it you refer to that Cliff as well not like Amazon did you |
| 52:15 | scroll down like a telephone book from A to Z you've got lots of tapses about us why MCB or why as AI or what is this uh and what is it so first you got why why solar radiation management what formulas and on those steps people then can click on wherever they want to go so think of it as a as a large Railway uh uh station or many points you know where people can go and to build it up that way a indeed is better Anthony you do not need four websites but you might have a tapio for policy makers or where does this fit |
| 52:51 | with other uh Greener environmental legislation or how will this affect Youth and future I mean I do not know what the Taps will be that actually is very good to engage with young people and to find out well what are their questions and do no down this question because questions you get here often from certain groups they have to be on the website on the fqt freak fqa frequently asked questions the FAQ sorry we ask questions they will come up with the questions you have to come up with the answers yeah so indeed the four I |
| 53:25 | said that's for a website but I thought I was talking about four audiences so the the website should ideally cater for four audiences and then of course when you go and meet with an audience you then can make a dedicated briefing for the people that you're going to engage with but the website indeed should be so generic that anyone can go to because otherwise you know you update when one website and you do not update the other one and then Stephen will say oh sir it's still wrong on that website but we |
| 53:50 | already improved it there so from that point of view that's another uh good reason to work with one website you know where people can go through but you'll see that different people will take different pathways through your website mm-hmm yep um yep and Robert Chris yeah just a quickie just to pick up on something that uh fans were saying there I mean I agree with you entirely I wasn't suggesting that we should back off and just let these other you know kind of have four separate threads running uh |
| 54:16 | independently they clearly need to communicate with one another so there is a consistency across the site the point I was simply trying to make was that I suspect that the people in this group I may be wrong about this but I suspect that we are not the best people to write the text the cop to actually produce the copy for the 16 year olds that's that's but absolutely we need to talk to to get the stuff from this and we know what it is in what direction but there are different messages and the messages are |
| 54:45 | communicated in different ways and I was just kind of pointing to that but I agree with you it needs all to be coherent so there needs to be some sort of central um dare I use the word Authority that is ensuring that the many different elements of this package are internally consistent because the worst thing that could happen is that we've got these four threads which are intertwined but they're unraveling between themselves they've got to be neat they've got to be a neat fit and that will require some |
| 55:16 | effort hmm yeah for sure yeah yeah what are you thinking about um videos Anton I mean I know that uh I'm I've gravitate towards videos to make present presentations on different things what do you think well I think for probably the next iteration we may not get to that but I don't I don't know that we'll that will have to be part of the overall uh content uh mix of it um they're very useful and there's going to be it's going to get easier over time to make videos and cheaper and quicker |
| 55:52 | and so more people will be making them not fewer um so yeah so that's going to be a component of it in some way as long as it's not a delusion you're spending too much money on service door yeah yeah yeah great okay all right uh well thanks everyone for that uh that's I don't see any more uh more hands going up so uh okay so let's move on uh that's that's great um this is if it goes ahead and if it all happens Anton it's going to be a huge obviously it's gonna be a huge breakthrough for |
| 56:26 | everybody isn't it there's one more thing I guess we're waiting for Anton we'll give us the next direction right we're going to sit back and just wait for Anton to say now we don't need to have another meeting okay that's good okay great okay I think um we have uh do you want to say something about Ecuador Brew well sure um particularly with answered a political hat on um I think it's the interesting thing about Ecuador is that Ecuador is the home of the one of the biggest environmental pollution situations ever |
| 57:04 | with the uh the massive oil spills in the Ecuadorian Amazon and um my friend Stephen dosinger who's a lawyer has been working on that for 20 years and achieved a um an injunction uh against uh Chevron um uh it's um 11 billion dollars Chevron have been defending this and spending Millions upon millions of dollars to appeal and claim and shift and play every dirty trick in the book so the Ecuadorian public quite well aware of some of this stuff but I thought it was really interesting to see a 60 40 vote in favor of burning |
| 57:51 | further oil there um so it is a particularly interesting country it's also a country that that um voted to implement law of ecocide um they still struggle against enormously powerful um hydrocarbon elements there but it's great that actually there's a big win right now so um I I think it's worth keeping an eye on and worth worth following up and let's hope so others following both also Brew them voted by even bigger margins just to ban gold mining in a certain area close to the capital of Quito as |
| 58:27 | well yeah exactly um which is it's fantastic let's hope we see more of this happening because um at the heart of all of this uh if you you look at the root cause of all of our problems um climate change and environmental degradation are caused because Human Society has not implemented the necessary laws to protect our environment um we do this quite naturally uh if it's about somebody Upstream from you doing things we can see I mean we have the problem of the the Unseen in the oceans and the Unseen in the atmosphere |
| 59:09 | but uh if we can change the rules and we can then use those rules to force proper Earth system accounting with integrity um so that all of those unforeseen uh uh contingent liabilities are recognized then everything changes and the framework for restoring the biosphere becomes possible so you know you've got to go to the root cause and and this is why I think the the Ecuador thing was really exciting whole country voting that way yeah well the whole world needs to go in that direction we once you actually have proper accounting and you recognize |
| 1:00:00 | the true cost and the true value of everything then everything changes you know the true value of the work that somebody does in restoring the oceans or restoring the land restoring forests if they're properly paid for that by the people who are using those resources then we will be on a straight path until we do that we will just carry on talking 33 years since the first ipcc report and we've actually got nowhere we've gone backwards so at the front of everything we do I think that message is really important |
| 1:00:35 | to put across yep thank you thank you Bruce yeah I mean there have been emails uh going around on this kind of thing um hesitate to say Robert Chris I mean you put it very well I think with the tragedy the commons and so forth do you want to say any add anything again about that you're muted Robert I mean I I suspect that most of you will have seen that that brief exchange and the comments that I was between myself and Tom gauro um yeah he made a reference to uh the uh the Free Riders actually he should have been referring to the prisoners dilemma |
| 1:01:21 | because the scenario he was talking about is where Nations should be coming together to collaborate to make all this stuff happen you know to internalize the environmental and social costs of our impact um across you know in the oceans on the land and so on so forth um but what happens is that uh one or more of the parties betrays the others for their own um you know unfair advantage and that's a sort of a classic prisoners prisoner dilemma situation but you've got these other two scenarios which you might talk |
| 1:01:52 | about which I just you know very briefly if you want me to talk since you put me in the frame yeah one is the is the Free Rider which of course is where um one party pays for a for something that is going to benefit The Wider community um or many communities and others who are going to benefit do not contribute towards the customer they say oh well if he's going to do it I can just sit back and I'll get the benefit from them from his investment and they get a free ride and of course that is generally perceived to be unfair and there's all |
| 1:02:25 | sorts of equity implications of that and also it tends to uh alienate people and reduce the amount of resources available and the third one um is the tragedy of the commons uh Garrett Hardin thing um where a resource is uh essentially perceived to be free the minerals in the ground they're sitting there the fish in the ocean they're sitting there nobody owns them uh they're free it's a free resource all you've got to do is pay to go and get them you've got to pay the fishermen to fish them you've got to pay |
| 1:02:55 | the the miners to mine the stuff but if you don't take into account all of the other Associated costs and internalize them as Bruce was talking about what you get is effectively a market failure and and the the resource eventually gets exhausted uh and everybody loses so these are these are kind of classic problems that I've been talked about in uh in uh in in various different ways for a long long time and there's another one which I just mentioned it wasn't in that thread but it's a very significant one and it's one |
| 1:03:26 | that we should all be aware of we should talk to our children about it it's a Lifeboat problem another one from Garrett Harding where he talks about the situation where you're in the Lifeboat the crisis has happened okay you're in a Lifeboat and there are other people in the water desperate to be saved but you know if you take on all the people that you could take on your Lifeboat is going to capsize and you're all going to die so you have to make a choice about who you're going to not allow into the boat |
| 1:03:57 | you're just gonna let them die because otherwise you're at risk and then there's another little problem here another another opportunity what do you discover is that one of the guys in the water is a really young strong guy that can really row and he would be a great asset to have in the boat but unfortunately you haven't got enough space because it's full of old women a week and can't run so I think actually if I oh if I threw overboard a couple of these old women I would make space for this guy |
| 1:04:25 | and we'd all be better off so you've got nice little ethical problems in the lifelong and you know these are things that you know we can play with but they are thought experiments and they are quite provocative uh so that was that yeah great thank you Robert what goes through I've just said this very briefly goes through my mind is this whole thing about the rules-based order Global rules-based Order um and um you know that's been made very difficult when you have countries that um you know that that they want to wage |
| 1:04:59 | war and sort of thing autocracies and so forth so um but uh it seems to be it went in the wrong direction with obviously Russia and now China seem to be wanting to invade Taiwan or whatever but it seems to be going roughly in the rough roughly in the right direction um herb yeah if I'm not mistaken uh correct me if I'm wrong isn't Ecuador the country that had made the commitment to stop oil drilling some years ago in return for an international effort to compensate Ecuador and and the International |
| 1:05:31 | Community essentially refused or couldn't come up with the money if that that being the case is Ecuador getting um compensated in any way or is this something where they're going to have to eat the billion dollars on on their own which is really it makes it even more remarkable that and I guess the second sort of question is for those who you know follow this more closely than I do what are the possibilities or opportunities or maybe we'll just see as time goes on in other countries where this can Inspire countries for example I |
| 1:06:06 | know when I was doing the research for my book I I saw some uh some a major controversy and opportunity in I guess the Congo where where I guess they were had discovered oil and many of their in some of their peat lands and the U.S and other countries were attempting to find an arrangement that would keep them from exploiting that Discovery I mean I'm sure there are dozens of other um similar situations around the world sorry the the US was trying to prevent them from exploiting their discovery yeah trying to find a way to compensate |
| 1:06:42 | them or otherwise I mean okay okay they weren't going to invade at least as far as okay yeah trying to induce a cinnamon Juiceman okay yeah and it but it they they did offer the money it did work do you know what the outcome was no I don't know what the other day okay all right yeah no yeah it's good because there's some big big corporations and big countries keeping little countries done and holding on to economic power which unfortunately tends to Trump democracy until democracy really pushes |
| 1:07:16 | hard maybe there's a bit of that push but Ecuador wanting to do this things wanted to make ecoside a a crime voted for rights for rivers and this sort of thing but was unable to implement it because they couldn't bring the finance to their they should be getting from Chevron hasn't got there because it's been much cheaper for Chevron to pay millions and millions of dollars to lawyers to basically obstruct yep but but this um recent this was closed on this this recent vote you said that they've had they've they've voted for it |
| 1:08:00 | not to be not to be allowed to go ahead is that what you're saying yeah yeah uh which also tells me that the politicians were not corruptable by Chevron um it's a lot of an involved story that okay all right listen it gets all up there's a lot of corruption all right um hands since we're here talking about um Eco site actually the European Parliament has recently uh included uh ecoside as a principle in his legislation which is a good thing uh this is of course a topic that I was perhaps not I mean some of |
| 1:08:41 | you raise it now it's not I would not have Associated typically with solar radiation management but uh Robert Chris actually put his finger on something that is really a market failure that's oil and gas and and metal minerals the problem is they at all deficiency as you also cited about they are priced at the cost of expiration not the cost of creation or the cost of pollution and when I say there's a conference a bit Yeah but nobody created it so well certainly something created it I mean oil is quite simple it is prehistoric |
| 1:09:19 | that's why it's called fossil solar energy that nature quite nicely compacted and condensed in the hydrocarbons that we find today and so our real problem is not so much that oil use or gas use or coal use or metal use but it's our Surplus energy metabolism we are a super organism that has become pretty obese or at least the top 10 percent because they cause half of all the emission problems and the top 10 percent we all belong to that it's the oecd and the rich less or developing countries and so the challenge that we now have |
| 1:09:56 | and it's great that it only is like you you understand the difference between stock and flows so we always power Society with flows of renewable energy until the late 1700s and when the Brits actually discovered coal and Watson Stevenson developed a steam engine we actually could start using historic stocks of ancient solar energy and that's what we've been doing for the last 200 years at a rate even that it took nature 500 million years to create all the stocks you probably heard of peak oil peak oil |
| 1:10:36 | is the point where you've consumed half so if we consumed half of 500 million then that means we have consumed 250 million years of stock formation in 200 years so on average a little bit over 1 million years of ancient solar energy stock formation per calendar year but that's the average over 200 years the last year before covet we consumed 4. |
| 1:11:11 | 2 million years of solar prehistoric solar 4.2 million layers is 22 times longer than our species has roamed this planet now we want to go back to Renewables again well of course we should you know for two reasons if you go on with oil we basically Grill ourselves and secondly it will run out anyway so you have to come up with something else but the idea that flows of contemporary solar energy can ever do the same as stocks of ancient solar energy is naivety written Capital italic on the light so Renewables cannot power this Society so the challenge at large is our energy |
| 1:11:53 | metabolism has to come down considerably because even as we move towards a hundred percent Renewables if that will ever happen and it can happen but 100 of what it will be hopefully more than 1820 when we started industrialization but even if technology is 10 times better we're also is 10 times more people so that is not going to be an easy Challenge and so a phrase that I often use and this goes down both well with ngos and young people and politicians I say it's not about arriving in The Next Century full |
| 1:12:29 | stop I'm very ambitious I want much more I would like us to get there in a civilized and peaceful way and by the way what you are working on is an integral part component of that ambition thank you Hans yeah uh okay uh Brew last one and then we will move on I would say that that in respect of laid down energy by nature which has been part of the process of nature evolving its environment as it devolves itself and also patterns of nature which works by colonization or disbursement in colonization sex and disbursement nature wherever you |
| 1:13:14 | look lays down enormous stores of energy in order to make that disbursement and if you look at us as part of the Gaia idea we're using that that energy that's been laid down to lift ourselves to the next level humans are the disbursement of the interconnected life on Earth out into the atmosphere into the solar system and beyond and it's a natural thing but along that path we're going to use increasingly more energy but we have the available energy we have nuclear we have Fusion coming forward we've got other things in there and |
| 1:13:55 | there's a huge amount of other Clean Energy Systems solar radiation that we beam down from satellites etc etc so uh it's a it's a fact solving our problem restoring the damage is gonna require an enormous amount of energy very much more than we generate now we just have to make sure that it's clean energy but it's not actually doing further damage to the environment yep thank you Bruce uh Bru okay um let's move on to uh the the last topic um Chris um so should I bring up I recently wrote |
| 1:14:36 | the rewrote the text on climate arcs uh so probably most people won't have seen it uh when did you look at when did you see the website um Chris um just in the last few days yeah I think I just I'd probably only just Rewritten it in fact uh I can say thank you to Bruce Parker who uh got it working for me um so let's have a look I'm an arcs right so this is going to change to say cooling the oceans and uh so we have this idea of pulling a pipe giant pipe oh yeah can you see it I think I'm not I'm not sharing something |
| 1:15:15 | I'm not sure yet yeah let's share it there um yeah so um uh yeah so this this is the climate Arts website and this is going to say cooling the oceans uh when we get that done these uh menus don't work yet this is uh the back of a ship pulling a giant pipe through the ocean is this the one you you're you're talking about um Chris yeah uh the idea being to up well water and leave a sort of long line of it um in at the ocean surface of nutrient-rich water because uh this is let's say a giant pipe it goes down two |
| 1:15:58 | or three hundred meters to just below the neutral line you know that where nutrients suddenly get a lot more abundant more concentrated at deeper level um with the the idea to have finer Bank than growing mainly so they make and produce so there's more clouds um Anton actually uh tried this some years ago proposal Cooling and found that it's got a long story short you have to go quite slow you told me it wasn't it Anton you have to go about three knots um yeah um so thank you Chris okay and we also |
| 1:16:39 | had the idea of natural minerals that are aware that very natural very slowly very very slow release of nutrients such as phosphate and nitrates as well but but I think you're talking about this thing here this upweller and no doubt the others will have various issues as well what what is it um and this is going to be helpful to us Chris we need to know what we can do um well I'm not necessarily what you can't do what I was going to say was um I just want to if I get it again my thing seems to have seized up |
| 1:17:25 | um what I was going to say was I'll uh just have to read it out because it might program seems to uh points instances up I was just going to show it for some reason it sees so I'll have to close it down um just a minute no the problem is my program seized yeah okay I can't display it to you okay um well I just sort of shut it down hold on a second I don't know why it's done that it's just shut it and then I'll open it again and hopefully it'll be okay thank you right shut that let's try and open it |
| 1:18:14 | again see if we get anywhere now right coming up okay still seems to be seized up I don't know what's going on maybe try emailing me the file I can bring it up here yeah well I've only got a single slide anyway so the thing to do is uh and just refer to something else which has got the text in it which will provide me with what I need uh basically um the text I was going to show is just the definitions within the London protocol 2013 Amendment perhaps I can search for them here I can bring them up in a different |
| 1:19:08 | document that's what I'm just doing now okay so that's probably the simpler solution right let's see hopefully this one will work right let's see if I can share that come on Chris while you're opening that I just wanted to mention oh yeah Chris will be speaking at the uh hpac the Healthy Planet Action Coalition meeting uh this uh Thursday and Friday so uh I've uh I've sent a notice uh for that meeting uh Chris on uh ocean carbon dioxide removal and governance so we we |
| 1:20:12 | look forward to uh hosting Chris as our guest speaker at hpac this week okay so just to the top of the screen there now you can see the definition of Ranger engineering which is in the amendment of The London protocol so it's a deliberate invention intervention in the marine environment to manipulate natural processes including counteract anthropogenic Clan a climate change and all its impacts and has a potential to result in deletery surface especially where those effects may be widespread long lasting or severe you |
| 1:20:45 | will notice that it's not limited just to climate it just says including that and the reason for that is because there's other techniques that could potentially have large scale effects and the ones closest to Ranger engineering that's been suggested is obviously uh fishery uh fertilization for Fisheries purposes um if we just scroll down there to the other definition can I just ask Chris that think about the deleterious effect is it saying that the geoengineering might have the deleterious effects or |
| 1:21:15 | the or it's trying to avoid the climate deleterious effects it says that it's defining range engineering as having the potential yeah to result in delicious effects got it okay okay thank you yeah and then specifically in this case for ocean fertilization the definition of ocean verticalization you can see there is uh any activity undertaken by humans with a principal intention of stimulating primary productivity in the oceans and it doesn't include conventional agriculture or mariculture or the creation of artificial research |
| 1:21:50 | um the Japanese were very insistent on the inserting the last one no one else really thought it was relevant Japanese insisted otherwise they were going to support it so included it even though it's pretty irrelevant really into this particular case those are the two definitions and as far as I can see um the your The climatized Proposal fits that because effectively in the climate Arts proposal is just another variation of ocean upwelling um okay and there are various ocean upwelling techniques Stephen's talked |
| 1:22:23 | about one earlier there's also the ocean-based climate Solutions people who have won and there have been others as well so that's just in a nutshell I think it will be covered under that what that means in practice for us is that we have to do a small scale test and it has been measured and then people have to someone has to say oh this is okay you know it's not going to be it means in practice that if you want to do field experiments you would need to get permission from the relevant authorities in the state that will be |
| 1:22:56 | responsible whoever that might be so in the UK it will be the route management organization for England or in the devil administrations to be a different outfit if you're in the US EPA or whoever in the other states around the world right if it's in the Heights sorry no not just the high seas this is everywhere the London convention goes right up to the low water map yeah okay but but so what I mean is if it's like as you're saying the Great Pacific Garbage Patch and which is not in anybody's economic zone |
| 1:23:29 | the convention and protocol both cover the global ocean full stop yeah so who gives permission then okay so who gives permission in that sort of case in that case it then depends normally it would be the flag say to the vessel involved because you're always going to use a ship to get out there sorry the flag state so for example when they did the low effects experiment which was a German vessel Germans are responsible for um sorting out the permissions on that experiment okay if for any reason there are two |
| 1:24:05 | other Alternatives if you were to do it within an EZ which is probably unlikely but possible yeah and then it would be the coastal State because the coastal State obviously has powers within the Z area that's 200 miles yeah it's also the third option which is you can it can be done by the so-called loading state or if you load material to then deposit outside or a structure then where you load it that state could potentially um permit it as well although it might well be the same as the flag state of |
| 1:24:35 | course um yeah uh sorry sorry can you just say that last thing again if it's it it's a loading State oh where you go if you okay where you load it got it's right yes and you take it out yeah so for example if you want to use um a flag state that wasn't a member of the London convention or protocol yeah you loaded it within a state that was yeah from that state whatever else to the other okay enough like you might want to do okay all right that's helpful because that made me think another um thing on the web on that another one |
| 1:25:11 | of our climate arcs ideas it's actually have floating bit rather like sebs uh buoyant flakes it's buoyant slightly bigger things um a bit like pumice stone um mimicking permits pumice stone that that doesn't sink Pony Stone only lasts about a month or so I think on it varies but with this the idea is this would last years and years uh actually we told Brian Von Herson I don't see Brian Head right now I said uh if it's got nutrients it won't last long because it'll be colonized by shellfish |
| 1:25:46 | and it'll sink quite quickly um so uh but that so that would be that that would have to get additional permission for that presumably because so um does that come under the London dumping Convention as well it rather depends exactly what it is I mean for example in the case of the UK basically you need a permission to deposit anything in the city whatsoever through a defined list of exceptions for things like sort of firefighting Foams and other stuff like that um but okay apart from the exceptions you would need a permit different states |
| 1:26:23 | will have implemented the provisions probably slightly differently so you've got to look to the individual states national legislation that implements the convention the protocol to see exactly what would be required it is not exactly the same although I think there's quite a lot of commonality across that are those legislations but they're not exactly the same right do you think and what would be required you just you presumably you don't just get in touch and say we want to do this and they'd |
| 1:26:53 | say oh off you go then you've got to write um well presumably if you're going to get it it depends if you're going to get it funded you're going to have to write a proposal or something anyway in the first place yeah yeah yes and you you would need um according depending on the national legislation again you might have to do at least a an outline environmental assessment for a very basic experiment perhaps um and you might do a little bit of simple modeling maybe or something like that depends on exactly what it is |
| 1:27:20 | you're doing yeah um in order to get your permit and obviously if you scale things up then you need more information yeah if you're doing the bigger scale and potentially obviously if you get to deployment then you know that's uh a very a significant environmental impact assessment presumably would be required for such yes but that's fair enough because by the time it's bigger there's presumably more money and you've done some smaller tests so you've got a lot of information that you can yeah |
| 1:27:48 | um I mean what do you think or what does anyone think of putting Aggregates uh uh floating so it's essentially foam glass it's using the building trade um and it's Well it's mean the same thing as Pub is it's uh silicon you know silica but with some quite a bit of phosphate and then um activated carbon grit which um will attract microbes and anoxic environment produce a lot of ammonium which uh oxidates the nitrate need a lot of nitrate for you know a lot of growth I mean nothing like to make it |
| 1:28:25 | um you know nowhere near enough to make it a dead zone um do what do you think of this idea Chris you know like in the Pacific Garbage Patch to have lots of bit more more growth and so you've got shellfish more shellfish so that they actually sink they grow on the plastic they've got more growth blowing on the growing on this all this plastic that's not supposed to be there and sinking the plastic but but you were saying that there's so I saw a video that was saying there's actually lots and lots of life |
| 1:28:56 | living among the um the garbage patch actually has developed an ecosystem of its own effectively yeah um various bits of life that um live in and around it or underneath it yeah so it's a bit in effect like a um so-called flat or Fisheries aggregation device that's all used by fishermen in various parts of the world to try and attract fish and put out some sort of structure and look at a sort of floating structure made out of bamboo and other stuff that'll eventually degrade and whatnot and it gets life building on it and when |
| 1:29:34 | you get life building on it fish will come in and so on so it's an attractive device effectively the garbage patch is something pretty similar orbit it's not a deliberate Beach manufactured and put into place yeah yeah I mean I I we don't want our stuff you know going out of use within a few months so we we would if we get permission if we get get going with it would be to have a lot less nutrients so that it's not much more than a habitat maybe it's just nothing important yeah I mean I don't know |
| 1:30:05 | anything about your proposal I must admit I hadn't heard of that before um and I have no idea what people would make of it frankly um it depends I suppose what type of scale and so on you're you're thinking about uh but presumably you could start out doing something fairly small experiment just to get some basic information about what happens when you do it yeah yeah that's that's the first plan I mean we have so friends it's all France has so many ideas it's hard to keep up with them |
| 1:30:34 | um but anyway this is one of them um so I thought of uh I mean I live in London going to the uh Greenwich Maritime Museum and see if they do you think they might be would you know the amenables to just put something floating in the water uh that where it's not going to be stolen you know and somebody keep an eye on it and go back every few weeks or every month or something and see how it's doing I don't know I mean the other possibility it seems to me if you want to do something really small you could |
| 1:31:02 | do outside a sort of tank environment you might be able to find something like a lagoon environment that's fairly contained that would be easy to keep your stuff in the right place where you can monitor it and so on um there are a number of lagoons around the coast which are salt water and the most famous One probably is the fleet of course in Dorset where you've got quite a long narrow Lagoon of salty water behind a an embankment of uh Pebbles right I mean whatever it is we we can't just go to you know an open place and do |
| 1:31:39 | it because someone's going to come along and just take it away or or something you know it's it needs to be I mean it depends if it's a little bit away from the shore where they can't get at it very easily other than with the boat of course okay I don't know if you if it would work trying out in a freshwater environment first where you could perhaps then have a more constrained environment yeah I mean we have to the river I'm I'm in London so it'd be nice to just have it in the Thames actually the |
| 1:32:07 | Thames I can walk there within about 10 minutes um but uh there's but it's not bits brackish I think where I am um possibly but the other thing is of course you've got a big total flow there it'll go up and down a long long way yeah yeah that's right yes okay yeah anyway okay but this was all about permission uh thank you okay we've got a couple of hands up yeah thank you uh Sev please yeah could you go back to your um uh Arc Slide the website is this Chris or me you okay all right right okay okay all |
| 1:32:44 | right uh so did you want to read it or yeah yeah that that's you've got to got a boat pulling it if there is a current and and underwater at 300 meters you could just um anchor that in the current and you wouldn't need to use any any uh fossil fuels at all to drag your boat yeah we took we talked about that um it's very expensive to make more rings yeah deep water yeah but you you want more than 300 meters of water that's going to be quite a significant anchoring system um yeah and the other thing is |
| 1:33:32 | um I did come across probably five more years ago there was a Canadian proposal to Anchor effectively at a sort of cone shape that would deflect deep water up to the surface which is sort of vaguely analogous to what you're talking about but that was definitely a modern structure I think they were thinking of Mooring it on the continental slope but as Clive's eluded Mooring is its significant challenge in deep water and it's not not at all cheap you need quite a big vessel you need quite significant |
| 1:34:00 | weights and so on if it's going to keep it in place there is that um the uh you need a collateral current of more than one knot in order to overcome the density difference in the water otherwise you'll read the stagnate professor and it won't up well at all thank you and this you're talking about a mooring uh solution are you there even on a boat if you're not moving uh one knot at 300 meters depth you have to move one to two knots to get enough current to overcome the stagnation proper greater than that |
| 1:34:45 | it does at the surface you're down 300 meters and yeah beneath the Gulf Stream then or beneath the main float it's all right honestly you may want to use the uh the anadark current then uh in the beer you can see or something like that which is it was a a deep deep current in fact beneath the Gulf Stream actually you've got a counter current so that's going in the other direction doesn't matter it's it's the uh the velocity which which you're worried about yeah yeah that is true |
| 1:35:20 | we have considered it at the Equator as well have something more to have something more with Brian you're saying no using the counter current a counter cone yeah yeah yeah a counter current and then you have a more something more that at Wells water yeah you have to deal with a lot of lateral load on a pipe that's got a it's in a current so yeah the forces are significant yeah that's the other thing if you're going down below the mixed layer your currents may be moving in different directions what the surface |
| 1:35:55 | layer is doing so as Brian says you can have some issues with stressing things on your system that you're trying to deploy yeah okay uh we'll keep that in mind as well yeah um I I we're looking at the you know to try and get the best efficiency uh it seems to me that you'd want to have a some kind of propeller to pump water well at the front of the pipe to pump so our pipe was kind of fabric propeller to pump it up because if you don't have a propeller then you're going to get a lot of turbulence at the front if you're |
| 1:36:30 | trying to scoop it up you're going to get a lot of turbulence a better to have your propeller pumping water up the pipe at the same speed that um the pipe is moving through the water so to minimize the amount of turbulence at the front yeah anyway everything is the water it's going to sink down afterwards so you have to distribute it um broadly and then the water will slowly leak out but that produces additional head as well exactly yeah we thought about that yeah yeah that's in the in the diagram it |
| 1:37:06 | shows you a sort of diffuser at the end of the pipe front diffuse into the surface water so you don't get a density effect sinking it again quickly that's right that's uh can't quite see it let's put that over there yeah this sort of thing over here yeah yeah this was this was John's idea keep in mind a lot of boats are fairly carbon intense so the type of vessel will matter yeah um we only have to get three knots we thought about um sailing ship even um sailboats with a lot of drag lose |
| 1:37:40 | um they actually saw the heel so you have to have a wind in the right direction yeah um depending on where you are but one person um suggested uh going use the trade winds just sail downwind all the time with the wind behind you and uh just keep going around the world go through the Panama Canal yeah uh so okay all right well let's um we've reached our half past but we've had our 90 minutes everybody I'll just come back next time for the other thing I was going to talk about because there's no |
| 1:38:17 | time now uh I missed that what was that other thing that I was going to talk about how the climate darks in terms of its implications for ocean Shire areas if you're planning to do it in the area right sorry I didn't realize that we'd missed out on that so all right thank you and there's the potential there's also the potential for Chris to discuss that at our HVAC meeting uh this week so uh possibly I could actually um yeah I've included the link to that meeting in the chat and emailed it to |
| 1:38:44 | people so um yeah and follow up so I just got his hands yes Robert yeah sorry Robert I missed you there I just made it's a really quick question you don't have to answer it now you can answer it some other time but you Chris you made a comment about the uh the the rules being enforced by the flag motion does that give an opportunity to cherry pick the flag motions with the least demanding regulations of course but as I said also though it depends it does depend where you do it if you're in these Edge it doesn't matter then the |
| 1:39:17 | coastal state has primary responsibility over the flag say whoever it is um if you're an international waters then it's um so if you're advising uh Clive to the way in which to get the minimum grief from the regulations it was on the protocol where should he choose his flag well he'd have to find a state that wasn't a party so the protocol and probably not once the convention either and one that was a presumably a significant or a flag state that had some ships most of the flat most of the main flag |
| 1:39:55 | states are parties to the convention that all the end all the protocol I don't know probably are some that aren't but I'm not uh but I'm sure there's some for sure I could probably think of it I think I probably could think of one Pakistan would be an example well um what what's uh encouraging Chris is you haven't said that you imagine lots of damage being done to ecosystems but by you know our proposal I mean in terms of experimentation then I I don't see any uh significant damage |
| 1:40:33 | at all from these types of activities but it has to be said that upwelling generally most of the scientific literature doesn't really think that ocean up Welling would actually be very um successful in terms of climate whereas I think some people certainly think that it can be very useful in terms of fertilizing for things like Fisheries or algae or stuff like that okay and have they looked at this what last question did the dimethyl sulfide because I mean from the point of view of carbon carbon dioxide removal I mean |
| 1:41:04 | absolutely no it's not going to make any difference but but from dimethyl sulfide this is this is what we don't know we don't we I'm not able to calculate it if you if you look at the papers that I've put links in the chat to um apparently since the original claw hypothesis which was about 20 nearly 30 years ago now um they completely missed the significance of salt particles for this process which is salt is actually going to be very significant maybe more significant than DMS actually um and there's also paper there that |
| 1:41:40 | talks about now um rapid fire removal limits condensation nuclei in the Marine atmosphere so there is still from what I've seen of the literature the jury is definitely out in terms of detail the concept has certainly been accepted in certain parts of it at least but it is by no means fully proven I think by any in any case but certain elements of it are accepted but how significant is it at the end of the day overall I think it's still jury's out still I think yeah okay all right great very helpful thank |
| 1:42:15 | you thank you Chris thank you everyone and see in again in a couple of weeks if not before bye bye does anyone want to chat a little bit afterwards some friends uh okay you're muted friends no not better no yeah um interesting about uh Chris Vivian said about the I mean the the uh Flagship flags and yeah this country is can give you a permit or not to do what you want right and it's the same uh with a pets for instance |