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| 00:22 | oh hi Bruce Hi how are you doing uh I've just come back from Germany um with this nose running like a tap I'm afraid uh I've got a bit of a cold that's too bad yeah but uh I'll try and stay compos mentors for the next hour and a half or two hours to manage the uh manage the call I think we might have Anton with us as well yes but I see you've been busy Bruce oh yeah they're actually being retired oh the joys eh yeah hi Anton Hi how are you Bruce how are you you're fine nice hot day hot humid day here in |
| 01:18 | Washington you're in Washington DC Bruce in Washington state or DC uh DC okay right near the seat of power right I'm in I'm in the other Washington right in Seattle why is my video there you go guys how was your trip to uh Clive how was your trip to this wonderful wonderful actually awesome uh it's really great to sort of see friends as a 3D person I haven't met you or Bruce most people I haven't met as a as a 3D person but uh Robert tulip actually he came about a month ago uh and I met up with him |
| 02:20 | uh but anyway so it was great so Franz is uh very much you know he's in his late 70s and he's just nuts about rocks rocks and stones and and what happens when I can see them in the mountains you could see them in the mountains that's the way like rocks and stones right Swiss Alps and all the stones there yeah yeah so he's been working on this paper uh for such a long time really about how microbes the the huge roll microbes play in dissolving rocks and then putting them back together again cementing them |
| 03:00 | making some of the hardest rock is made by microbes is is what he says you know and it's their chemistry the Assassins that made the you know the the Stonehenge so do you know about geology Bruce no I think I had one college class in it but it was uh well above my head right too complicated way too complicated yeah it's it's a complex old Planet I suppose I think well our universe is very complex isn't it anyway um we're here early uh to to do you want to kick off um Antonio I mean I thought I'd put that |
| 03:42 | idea I saw that and it was a kind of um knee-jerk reaction almost well not quite actually because I've been thinking you know what what would make a uh a sort of how do you approach this whole thing how do you pull in all different types of audience you know and when I saw that ah great it starts with a quote it then sort of has a bit of a spiel in big you know typeface then you get some options some big picture options and finally it sort of gets down to more detailed stuff for people that were looking for details |
| 04:18 | but that was the only reason I liked it because there you go so it kind of it it sort of feeds you it to it directs you and you go you go in this direction until you find what you want rather than what should I choose so I choose I don't know really what I want what should I do you know I'll just end up here and maybe you know what I mean yeah it's a good good way to phrase that Clive is uh Choose Your Own Adventure versus a guided tour right yeah okay yeah other than that you know we've been traveling and you |
| 04:51 | know finding a hotel finding our way around that that's what's been going on I haven't really been thinking uh what I saw obviously uh Bruce's I suppose it's a reaction to you know your work Bruce made me look at it and think um but what would the average person how would they I mean obviously we need your skills we we need database back end and everything but I'm just thinking from the experience of of a user right yeah part one is just to figure out what do you want to include and what do you want on the website yeah |
| 05:21 | mine is just you know it's just administrative stuff is there's no doesn't grab you at all um but remember for the back end for doing analysis and people putting data in and telling them all about the projects and and uh rating them does need to be pretty no no absolutely yeah yeah I think for me one of the things that I want to get the in terms of like how we want to go about doing this is I want to get the sort of subcommittee group and then the greater larger group of Noah at all to get aligned around what's the real |
| 05:55 | mission of this right and as I you know I've been in this group for a little bit before and coming back now my assessment of it is is um there's a lot of ideas yeah and there's a so there's a quantity but then to really get anything funded and moved into a field trial you're going to have to distill the quantity down to Quality yeah and I think everyone can agree with that I don't think anybody's going to disagree with that um is how we do that is through the one way to do that is through the what I |
| 06:32 | recommended is we go to a an intake form from the submitter and a review form and again the word form is the wrong word but it's just an approximation um so I submit an idea right I detail out what every piece that I know about it and relevant piece that anyone else needs to understand about it such that the reviewers which could be 10 people or 100 people and then review that and then help uh use that aggregate number of people's assessment of that idea from really from a qualitative standpoint great okay let me just |
| 07:12 | mention that Rebecca hi Rebecca we thought we'd join a few minutes early to sort of have a pre-discussion I'm glad I I gate crashed because this is I wanted to put this on the um agenda which obviously it would be so I'm happy to listen there's 11 minutes but when it's if I'm allowed to say anything I've heard what you just said then good morning everyone or good evening wherever you all are good morning good morning are you still in Germany Clive or not no no I'm back I just got |
| 07:43 | back uh just just a couple of hours ago yeah and Bruce forgive me but I've forgotten where you are geographically Washington D.C RC I'm just joking I'm speaking with a Texas accent yeah and um Anton where are you I'm in the other Washington yeah very nice um yeah let me let me just say can I can I just let me just what's been going on in these noac meetings well certainly for me is there's just no time uh to to I do what I can with the time I've got you know and um and people have some people have |
| 08:26 | great materials like Steven we come up with our own materials but then Franz comes up with another idea and another idea and another idea and it kind of goes in different directions so so uh if we if you can get people to spend time I think you want to make this process as quick as possible for them and not too repetitive because they'll give up or they won't have time they'll say well no I I want to work on my my project no I've got all day to look at all your projects I think that that needs to be uh considered as well yes |
| 08:58 | could I say something on what you've just said and what Clive has just said um for starters I want to go back half a step I forget whether it was Bruce or you sent through a form but the link wasn't working for me and the reason I didn't tell you about that whoever it was I'm sorry for being a bit ignorant and just forgetting but was it you Anton or anyway someone sent through a draft website yeah and in the when I looked at it it had down msai and MCB as priorities so if you can't remember it I'll find it and send |
| 09:35 | it to you both but the reason I didn't reply is because there's a very serious discussion at the moment about whether MCB is enough on its own or whether we need Sai and that is a strategic discussion and um Brian Von hertzen has got very strong views the same way that Robbie tulip and I and quite a few people do that it must be only MCB at the moment not Sai we can't impose that on other people but in terms of having one strategic Rebecca website simply to say here's a placeholder that's all the ones that I had and then |
| 10:14 | we need to discuss what should go on that page this simply addresses how do we organize this thing exactly but you know what the the reason I didn't comment Bruce is simply because I I think that for even for ourselves we've got to get our ducks lined up in a row so that we know whether we're strategically saying earth-based things or or Natural Things lots of people like it so I'm I'm really talking about strategy but let's put that to the side the next thing is we've got 28 ideas on our spreadsheet and I |
| 10:48 | subscribe to just have a think and that lovely man there Dave ballace has got another four things that are not on our spreadsheet so the spreadsheet can keep growing five more ideas a week let's say which is one of your points Anton so what we really need is to be able to say among ourselves which ones are almost ready to go and can be put towards funders with a bit of hard work and for example I think Clive and franz's idea is in that category so is Stephen Salters MCB and I don't know of anything else that |
| 11:25 | is in that category so in terms of brain power to write stuff up and get it in towards funders George Soros Etc and when I'm saying this it's all what I'm actually saying is the views of a little tiny group of six which is meeting at seven o'clock every Sunday morning at the moment Sydney Time 5 p. |
| 11:43 | m Vermont time and 4 P.M Chicago time there's six of us and so what we want to do is get a couple of things up there at the beginning of the you know at the moment they're all in technology Readiness four let's say and we want to get it up to ready to deploy and roll out at scale but we can't spend the same amount of time on everything and so I'm really this is what I tried to say to SIV when we had a working meeting last week and God bless him he he wants to apply the same amount of thoroughness to everything and in due |
| 12:16 | course we can and we should but we really need to pick out the ones that even if they're not going to work like we we know that MCB will work one way or the other the question is how powerful is it compared with Sai that's one question the other question is that sais on the nose with lots of people and that's why a number of us are reluctant to have it up there like myself Robbie Doug Grant and Stephen Salter and John Nissen have been doing a lot of strategic work about how to sell the pair of them as a package with MCB |
| 12:51 | coming first but to get right back to your point Anton what we need is a beautiful website it takes a little while to get up and running and then all of humankind from Alaska every high school student can put up their idea if they can write it up nicely and it can go through a Gateway and that sort of stuff but that will take time and so I'm begging us to maybe use MCB and Clive's one or Clive in franza's proposal um loose dust artificial loose dust as a pro forma to test out your process shove it in somebody can shove it in with AI |
| 13:28 | or whoever some high school if Clive's got a nephew he they can type it in you know but to what get your process up and running can we back a couple of Technologies and just get them ready for Cambridge to assess for George Soros to fund Etc now I've said a lot and we've got five minutes till the meeting but that's kind of the Strategic Vision that the group of six or the gang of six are working on on a Sunday morning yeah and then the question for that wouldn't it well I was like you take one |
| 14:02 | one of the things Clive or something and you say how about I put this up in a website what information do I need do I do I need you know videos so we're just how do I organize this stuff so just pick one and just put it up and say let's let's make this one look some way to base what information we've got exactly exactly and you know what the other funny thing is Bruce Anton you know you're in Anton's in Washington West Coast there's an MCB project there there's also a blue cooling project over |
| 14:32 | in the Netherlands neither of them have got any actual projects ready to fund and so as much as they say we love it we're scientists we want to back at Rara myself and Robbie juloff have been hunting high and low for actual proposals that these two big think tanks hi Sev good morning I know you're in Mount Macedon so it is morning for you so so I reckon MCB as the one to go with and Robbie tulip's got a lot of work like he could if he turned off every other thing he's doing for a week he could sit down and punch the stuff in |
| 15:07 | you know or I could but anyway we're just discussing our beautiful spreadsheet process Sev yeah yeah yeah copying the text into a database is no problem at all um uh Rebecca I.T people like Bruce and me and so forth you just have automated routines or you can just use copy and paste you know um so what Bruce talking about is the structure you know what what does this thing look like how do the stars get uh calculated is it averages and whose averages and all this exactly and Robbie Robbie Easter too in terms of |
| 15:49 | our you've done a 4 but who gets weighted and whatever right I'm an econometrician that's one of my things right so that's the sort of stuff that we love so but it's all complicated but I'm just saying can we pick out one technology to test out your beautiful yeah okay you're saying we can't wait to get going you know while this while the system is being built let's put some real data in there and discuss the the real issues and that's a good in fact that's not a bad idea I think I I do |
| 16:20 | what do you think about that Bruce I mean if I just say whenever I made a system it was putting real data in when I took the prototype to a customer if it said you know contractor a contractor one contractor two contractor three they just said oh yeah it'll probably work but if I put in the actual names of the contractors that they deal with they would say oh that crook show me how how the you know transactions show me how I can see the detail of whether how they're ripping us off do you see what I mean is that your experience |
| 16:52 | foreign 20 000 different ways of looking at it so we just need to take the data and said what what how would you put up what information do we need and how do we organize it uh for one of these projects and the second one will probably use 80 of the same stuff I have 20 new and he started working way down project by project until you get the stuff you need to have having done this once before um actually more than once before um the trick to making a standardized form is that you can make it work for one of the projects and then you move to |
| 17:48 | another project and it's like oh we're missing five aspects so the trick is not to make it so over refined for any one project but rather make it um standardized enough to feel like it's a relative standard set of parameters um as far as as far as the in information but then make it flexible enough to accommodate variances right so so that's the real trick instead of just trying to get down to real nitty-gritty specific questions try and put those questions into categories of thinking and then so like |
| 18:26 | I know Sev will come up with questions if he's reviewing a project or proposal he'll come up with questions that I want and I'll come up with questions that Bruce might not or Rebecca might not and and so on and so forth so I think it's the unique questions that each one of us can bring but not having every single possible question be in a form that way you're not overwhelming the submitters to write up for every question possible that would be overkill for everybody so that's why the forms that I came up |
| 18:56 | with were category based with suggestive questions for the submitter to think about what is going to be kind of asked and that way they can give their package drafted up as they see fit then the reviewers can you know use their form to assess hey did they hit all these sort of categorical pieces and so I see that in exchange being a little bit of a process now Rebecca I get what you're saying around you know can we just pick one and go and I agree with that I love that um and I think we could probably easily |
| 19:38 | say which of which of these various 25 or 30 ideas we feel the most comfortable with I bet we could easily do that in a in one day in a poll you know pick your top three write them out and see you know everyone would probably have one of these all in this in their top three so we could say Okay Marine Cloud brightening we all feel really good about that we'll base a lot of this stuff on how would we flesh that out and work that to the very top because that's going to get presented to the public for example I |
| 20:08 | think we could do that and bypass a lot of the complexity around making this form submitter and reviewer form stuff and maybe house that for later that also fits better into the other part of this that I want to bring to the meeting today which is the the why in the road between are we creating a noack website that's going to sit by itself or do we create um this functionality within the climate Foundation and until that really gets solved I don't Bruce I don't know that we necessarily need to show anybody a |
| 20:47 | mock-up website because then it'll raise the questions hey you know what about this and and or is it going to be a standalone well we don't know the answer to that yet um so I think we should wait until at least that one question is answered because then we're going to have a different set of criteria for what that website's going to look like anyways because then we have to work with Brian and his team around making that um that system so I would I would what I would like to do today is I want to have |
| 21:12 | a chunk of time where I talk about the alignment of this and what we're all I think aligned to and then walk forward from that alignment to how we can get this done in a way over the next coming months and what that might look like and include in that that question of is this going to be a noac website that's going to sit by itself or are we going to do this as a big tent uh sorry climate Foundation um Peace okay that's that's what I wanted to get out of today okay you might do both foundation and one Standalone yeah |
| 21:58 | yeah that was the hybrid Bruce that when we talked on Friday that was what I was saying too is like you know this really could be in two separate we got the sausage making website off to ourselves right or it's private when it's not going to reveal it to the public and then we take the best of and we move it into right into the climate Foundation that could be a good plan do you know what guys when we get good morning Robert when we get on to the actual item Doug and I have got things we can share about the Sunday morning group and where |
| 22:26 | this is all going but perhaps we should press pause seeing as okay A lot of people are here and uh yes I was just going to say Clive you've already started and so I came in part way so I'm not quite clear what's going on right now we accidentally started 15 minutes early and I'm sure start all over again anyway it's been a lovely meeting so far okay I got an email I've just got back there's friends I was just in that office a couple of days ago with France um and um got just got back a couple of |
| 23:03 | hours ago um and uh so and then antonik wanted to have a a brief chat before the meeting so which has uh rolled into the meeting so let's start our meeting in the normal way which people expect uh and this can be an item so we just wanted to have a bit of a pre-chat so as not to bore everybody with details about websites and things um okay so welcome everyone um right and uh I need to bring up my computer and see what I've got get this thing ready so please be thinking about what you want uh us to discuss today while I get the agenda |
| 23:47 | coming up here um agenda um so it's about good enough oh okay so we know we want to talk about uh this website so what do we once we what do we want to call this website we don't know if it's going to be a noac website or so it's a Solutions a Solutions oops a Solutions website how about calling it Solutions climate Solutions yeah Market did you say or like it I like it I like it okay conversations website thank you thank you Frank um Sam okay uh so that's gonna be let's say Anton and Tom okay what else |
| 24:45 | there's so many things in the news the sea surface temperatures and so forth we don't need to talk about them but um what what else do we want to talk about I I hesitate to bring it up but um this turquoise hydrogen is is a possible solution to ebullient methane and I wonder whether whether people wanted to learn a little bit about about that I I said a uh a paper to Clive on that which has come out recently it gives about nine different methods of making hydrogen but um I reckon this could be a a good one for |
| 25:24 | the not addressing the the hydrogen which is not addressing the methane which is currently in the air which ice or and other things do but trying to stop that which is about to come under there from getting into the air is is that relevant enough to know it or not uh so this is a way of generating hydrogen and also avoiding methane emissions yes um well I I mean I I try not to be too sort of rigid uh it sounds interesting basically if it sounds interesting we can have a short piece on it uh why don't we just put up the um the URL to |
| 26:04 | the thing and then people can uh can decide if they want to have a look at it and see if they want to come back next meeting do you want to could you put the uh URL in the chat then uh so I think let's we're going to give it five minutes if you like and I'm happy for you to put it in the chat uh it probably won't get a long discussions should we say I think yeah uh people but it's it does sound interesting to me anyway okay uh morning John morning looking well uh I've seen your emails going back and |
| 26:44 | forth as well uh do you want to mention the up the up Weller today or not people might not know much about it yeah let's do it yeah okay I suspect people be should be interested uh all right um your control right okay okay anything else anyone else there was the paper I came across Clive which was about co-removing methane and CO2 at the same time I don't know if you come across it I think I did see that yes uh it looks like very preliminary work I thought but um potentially interesting that's all I'm not really anything much to say |
| 27:37 | about it but it just seemed to be something of potential interest okay but yes it would be did you see that friends um it's about about two or three weeks ago I think it was yeah I'll put the link in the uh in the chat I think you might have I think I didn't like it because I thought you wouldn't but then you sort of I think you thought it wasn't too bad is it a I don't remember exactly is it okay a biology let's let's wait until uh Chris no it's not biological it's a catalytic one I think yeah yeah okay so |
| 28:15 | let's wait till that comes up um anything else anyone else evening John John listen you're muted John did you want to say something um I just thought somebody would want to be uh talking we might want to talk about the extreme ocean heat yeah yeah at the moment right so let's put this up perhaps we'll put that I think that should come up quite High uh I don't I don't particularly want to lead on it but I think that's something we should discuss yeah um somebody else would like to take a |
| 28:53 | lead on um well I'll put myself in there because I did actually mention it a minute ago um uh I've got a high c surface temperatures right I'd like to hear from Robbie a bit about the uh the ccr's uh uh MCB lab what it looks like and what they're testing if if you went on that that trip is is Robbie here as in Robert Robert tulip yeah is Robert you're here or not uh don't see him was anyone is that uh Robert Chris here reading one of these uh links yeah did you go did you go on that that visit to |
| 29:41 | the lab I did did you I mean Hugh hunts it just keeps saying it's very difficult to do they haven't really managed to make small droplets so they can't even measure them yet if if Robert Chris is able to speak about the actual lab I've got a bit of an update from Robbie tulip on writing up the MCB proposal because we had a 30-minute chat yesterday morning Sydney time so if that's one item I'm happy to chip in a little bit on that one but I mean it's just happening and you know Robbie's might don't want to speak about |
| 30:18 | it now but could Clive could you please put Robert Chris did you go on that um did you go to the lab that day or not I did go to the lab that day yes okay well can we please put Robert's name down beautiful perfect thank you Clive yeah you've got the best reporter because I wasn't paying too much attention but I'll uh tell you what it is Robert you here today not yet no right okay fine what what I'll give everyone there very exciting news there Robert tulip has got a meeting today with a very senior |
| 30:49 | person I can look it up on LinkedIn because he sent it to me but it's someone in the Australian climate bureaucracy I don't know whether it's government or NGO but he's in Canberra I mean I had the weekend in Canberra and he must be kind of having a shower and getting dressed and so forth I don't know what time the meeting is but he was super duper excited about it and so if he's not here it's because he's getting ready for that particular meeting so okay okay all right um anything else |
| 31:18 | for anyone maybe we have enough things do you want to talk about the solutions website first I mean we were just we were just talking about it to Anton and then we move on to other things that's going to take a lot of time uh yeah how long do you want to take on this uh Anton and then we can try and be very efficient so what does that mean then 20 minutes no no no no no 10 minutes 10 minutes let's see if I can even get it in in under 10 minutes okay so that that'll be you speaking but other people might have |
| 31:52 | comments so let's allow let's allow maximum so it's not that's already nearly quarter past we could say by half past we'll try and wrap it up around about half past okay so so as you guys know we're gonna be building a website uh for Nowak and um I want to say a couple things about the process and I want to start with an alignment uh statement um you know for any self-organizing group to have a bunch of ideas and then um achieve the the what I believe is our goal is to move one or more of these ideas into |
| 32:37 | reality such that field trials can happen so this means funding from either donors or investors or a combination thereof um it is in my opinion and please chime in if you don't agree with this but it is of my opinion that it's not about quantity of ideas it is rather about the quality of one of those ideas it doesn't mean we cannot have more than one it just means if we uh fire hose versus targeted approach um we will have a difference in the outcome in perception and fundability meaning if we have too many ideas |
| 33:18 | investors and donors may be overwhelmed to go like they don't yet know what they want to do therefore I can't put money in um so I think it behooves of us to refine and distill across the aggregate of the community what are number one and maybe number two or maybe one two and three but probably not much more of that to begin with our best idea is that we think should be moved into reality should be moved into different levels of maturation towards a higher TRL level and towards field trials and that means |
| 33:54 | getting funding so if that is our goal how do we do that so one rather maybe more complicated way that I came up with is to have an intake formed let me let me just say is that our goal does that does does anyone disagree with that as a goal I'd have thought you that the goal was basically education getting uh getting people to understand the issues and the solutions kind of solutions that can address these issues and in particular um we need to fall in behind the what the enhance um at the CCR forum uh were saying uh |
| 34:47 | Hans from what was he saying Lou yes I've managed to remember his surname yeah yeah um that um um and his counterpart was uh Buddha right what was he actually saying John um they were saying that unless the pro SRM people gather together and present themselves as a United body uh they will never get they will never get as RM done right yes okay so that's very good you're saying the site the website needs to educate as well as educated on the issues as well as then give the solutions to the so first of |
| 35:32 | all educate people on the problems and then as in you know looming tipping points and things and then and then so the solutions fit into the context of those problems that we've educated them about yeah I rather agree with that does it does that fit with what your what you were thinking um Anton I agree I don't think you can bypass the need to educate the General Public and I think one detractor from that or one way to miss the mark on that is to present too many ideas um yeah right so I'm absolutely with you |
| 36:07 | about having too many ideas this was one of my points a little while ago and yeah it not only detracts from time spent on the more likely to be successful Solutions it it presents itself as um you know too scattered and too unfocused yeah it will push away interest from the finance folks to fund something that is focused because that's going to be the requirement of any investor is how focused are you right that's so so the focus of the education is is on the need for SRM uh and and that you know we mustn't |
| 36:47 | despair it is possible that we can save ourselves from the kind of catastrophe that is implied by Hanson with is uh four degrees Yeah and 60 plus meters yeah we're not doing monsters we're desperately seeking solutions to how to call the planet and how to refreeze the Arctic in particular yeah uh when we when we talk to ourselves in this group I think it's very obvious that all of us agree that um thermal management has to be a part of this not just decarbonization and carbon dioxide removal the the deposit I |
| 37:33 | would make is that the general public at large is barely at a point of in terms of a threshold of understanding that CDR is needed they're not even there yet so thermal radiation management is Earth thermal management is even further away from the general public being able to comprehend the need for yeah so so that's that's an argument a very strong argument for us to do some education gargantuan tasks to educate the whole world and so we need to educate uh people who will uh who will understand what we're saying |
| 38:16 | and that's right put pressure on on the leaders that's right and get or provide funding if they've got it yeah okay uh Bruce you've got your hand up yeah that's me well the main thing that's what we got of a sort of a public-facing website's education you don't have to worry about the the education is not to say yeah one solution is lowest and dust or whatever but the main what you're trying to get them to say is is understand we need Solutions we need to do something about reducing Albedo or |
| 38:43 | doing something and that's the main focus of the site not what Solutions are uh with associate would just sort of be in general you know but John is you know that that's what I what I think you really ought to do is just how but how do you do how do you educate them what is what is part of education is it videos is it text is it is it articles how do you keep people coming back week after week to find something new going on um but that's that could almost be a separate discussion in this group of you |
| 39:09 | know set up another meeting another couple three weeks or so let's talk about what that might include okay in terms of the education yeah okay thank you and uh Robert yeah I think that the point that um Antony's making um well there are two separate points here one the what the point that foods have um was making very very forcibly was that was a political point that if you want to have purchase in the in the you know politically and actually get your stuff to be translated into policy you needed to be a unified entity |
| 39:45 | delivering one message and coming across as a bunch of people who have thought through the whole package and here is the justification you know we are together on this we've done the work and we are speaking as one is here's the way forward the point that Anton is making is a slightly different one what Anton is saying and actually the the the counter example to what Anton is saying is the um the hpac paper that Ron Bateman and others are authored where you've got 19 different ways of doing um Albedo enhancement |
| 40:19 | and I think that um what uh if I take what Anton is saying literally what what we need to do is we need to do the work that so that goes through these 19 or more because there are always new ideas emerging and we need to do the work that says right guys we're not the the primary focus here is not about the theoretical possibility of whether this would work or not the fundamental question is what are the practicalities of turning this idea at scale into reality you know what are you know obviously the physics and the |
| 40:56 | chemistry is important but what is the engineering involved geographically where it will be done how would it be financed you know and so so you've got the whole so you we have some kind of um template for assessing the Technologies uh for their for their transition through the TRL stages okay and we put each of those in methods through the Mensa and the ones that don't score the vision we just abandoned however attracted we are to them in principle they get abandoned because they are not the ones that the investors are going to |
| 41:32 | like most because they're not the ones that are going to be the least risky the most secure the most likely to scale and so on whatever the other criteria are so there is a task here where um which means to be done which is to go through the many different ideas that have emerged and to sit down you know very um cold-headedly very rationally and um and do a triage you know sort them out and just come up I mean I know Anton you you know do we need two three four how many is too many how many we got to get how many have we got to get down to |
| 42:08 | yeah right it's it's not 25. that's too many I think you're not too incompatible with the things that you both just said uh or is there I don't think so hugely okay thank you Robert one last point about this one of the views that I have held about this whole climate change thing for many many years is that we've never been short of appropriate responses our failure has been to actually realize them and given that the time scale the window is is closing you know it's it's narrower now |
| 42:44 | and it's closing probably faster than it ever has been if you look about what is feasible to be scaled also I rephrased that what is what is feasible to have a materially a materially positive impact on the problem it's going to be stuff that can be turned into reality at scale quickly you know in a decade in 15 years so I think that one of the things that we need to do is we need to look at these whole this whole range of different possibilities and ask ourselves you know do the Technologies there is no business that has ever grown |
| 43:22 | to scale in less than 30 years even mobile telephony took 30 years to get to Global penetration you know it takes a long time even for something relatively simple so the reality is in my view that whatever whatever Technologies emerge as the The Front Runners here there are going to be technologies that largely depend on existing know-how existing materials existing techniques existing facilities so you're not creating everything more or less from scratch because of that we just don't have the time for that and |
| 43:59 | that's going to turn people off so I think that you know the more that we can identify the the the the the ability to turn these or to use existing building blocks rather than creating new building blocks the more likely we are to come upon to light upon the ones that are most attractive okay thank you very much uh Rebecca hi look I'd like to bank what Robert just said 100 and say the same thing with slightly different words and in fact um adding some examples in the two weeks since the last noack meeting there has been one planning |
| 44:37 | meeting of the technical review Group which is if I'm looking around the screen John McDonald Doug myself um Sev Bruce Anton Robert tulip I don't know if I've left anyone out but in that meeting Leslie field joined us and so also did Stephen Salter and so what Leslie told us and she's there was actually a technical q a Sev wrote some um critiques that he had of bright ice and Leslie has answered them in writing and what I'm saying there is Leslie says the main obstacle for Bright Eyes refreezing the Arctic with her proposed |
| 45:18 | method has been Regulatory and by implication public acceptance so in terms of we need something that can be started now with field tests let's say within 12 months that can then be ramped up regionally and hopefully at scale or if it was three different things they all add up to the scale that we need we need to zero in on two to three things um before we had a meeting I think it was Anton was talking about a poll if I had to stick my hand up I'd say bright eyes mcb1 and mcb2 which is Brian's idea |
| 45:57 | and Steven's idea but whatever we can do a poll to find the Practical ones maybe it's one of John's as well but we need to get so in terms of the purpose of I'll call it the project rather than the website it needs to find two to three things and get them to TRL six seven eight or nine so that's my very main point what I'd also like to say is a separate point and I don't know whether Brian would like to comment on it seeing as he's here and he's actually got his hand up um very very briefly the idea of is it a |
| 46:29 | noack website or a climate Foundation website at the moment we have got no hpac and a few people um meeting about things in general so it might be a website from our groups or it might be climate Foundation but that question does have to be sorted out yeah I think that's coming later I think I stopped Anton midflow because he I wanted to see if people agreed with his ambition for the for the absolutely okay thank you Rebecca so this is about do you mind just restating so the ambitious yeah and on the ambition I |
| 47:05 | just want to see if people agree with this ambition rather rather than just Meandering off on us something else say it again please yeah if the goal of this community is to just educate that's One Direction and as the website becomes a very different animal if that's the case if it's to both educate and coalesce around a proposition whether that's one proposition or multiple propositions then how does a how does this community decide which one B where does that proposition then get promoted and how it's a separate issue |
| 47:45 | and therefore what this website could be um in the early stages needs to be talked through theorized strategized and built alignment around and so for the coming next couple weeks I think that's our goal is to decide upon are we in education only or are we moving towards pushing and promoting one or more propositions such that we can gain traction with it with funders and donors and move that into some form of process for development I understand what you were saying but I wasn't saying no as a binary it's to me |
| 48:30 | it's we can't do any of the moving into development unless we also educate so for me it was a yes and to be clear yeah right strategically doing that so the two things that I'm hoping to get out of this part of our meeting today is one um aligning over are we going to be reviewing all those 25 or 35 or 45 different concepts and Distilling down to what we as a community think is the best one two or three my assessment is probably that's probably a good path to go down and then second one is where does this website |
| 49:07 | live and how does it live and so what Clive and Bruce and I have done a brainstorm session on 10 days ago was if we had a private website with just Community folks no act maybe HCA maybe Prague maybe others and we had a sort of how do you make the sausage you know the sausage machine how do we go through that list and distill down to the top best of so that was a utility function that we came up with that could live within a private members only website okay hang on I'm almost done and then we take the best of and we move it |
| 49:45 | to the front of the website that is public facing with some education here's the propositions does this make sense to go sort of quote-unquote public with it and then does that fit Within the private uh sorry for does that fit within a separate website or does it fit Under the Umbrella of the climate Foundation and I'm of the belief similar to what John Neeson said that rounding up all the disparate groups and the idea is at least for the educational political process and social process is better if we all have a unified voice |
| 50:22 | so so I'll leave it at that that's where I was going to go today that's great thank you very much um and so on uh Bru Pierce hi folks um let's say when when looking at a website first uh thought I would have is buying down your audience and your reason for doing this um who are you addressing it to and what is it gonna do um it's a shop window to the world so if you structure it right and you put the right tags in there people who are looking for solutions to cool the Arctic whatever it may be we'll find their way to it it's |
| 51:03 | also creates substance to a diverse group and it covers your windows so that you can say this is Who We Are um having decided on what your audience is and what you gonna do with it and how you're going to bring them forward um you probably then need to be thinking about the framework that you're trying to move forward within um to enable these things to happen so there's a series of priorities as to what is what's going to happen to enable it to be possible so some of the texts that we're talking about are really |
| 51:40 | difficult in terms of uh International compliance acceptance and such like um others will be lower hanging fruit and that one can get them through uh I suspect the other function and finance is absolutely vital to this is going to be structuring this so that you were attract the right sort of funders so they become a key audience anyway that was my sort of input to it is we should be thinking around the audience we want how it's going to work was that the the so the thinking around the audience and how it's going okay |
| 52:19 | who's the audience and how's it all going to work okay is it is it financed is that the big push or are you generally educating or are you putting yourself in a position where um the Press will come and see it know who you are write about it there are all these Target markets that we could look for but it is instruction and the level of complexity that we put forward that's all going to be tied down otherwise we're just doing an awful lot of work and creating yet another website but that's what I'm very disagree I mean |
| 52:53 | that there's so many of us different groups out there it's a little bit like the Monty Python sketch and bring everybody together with a you know with an overarching common cause is really important and then there's all the links to it um you know it's becoming increasingly apparent but CO2 drawdown methane drawdown alone is not going to be enough we've got to do we're going to have to do cooling actions we're going to have to restore hip actions um we've got to do a lot of work to |
| 53:23 | bring back the biological systems because they have their own cooling impact and all the work that Roger letters been talking about really really relevant um and putting it all together that would be that would be fabulous yeah get out there and I press started turning to us so we got independent verification and then Finance would come along say this is the place to go yeah before we go into lots of details or it may be we just it's a repository for information you might as well do that on Google groups within our Network |
| 53:54 | I I think we want uh ultimately I mean hands up uh who thinks this should be about generating Finance for projects development should this what is it is that what it's about hands up uh so that seems to be most people not everybody but most people yeah oh thank you yes and I mean you can't have Finance people on board unless you have every a bunch of other target audience yeah you've got to have the the whole that's right the press and everything else okay thank you very much bro uh friends I only want to say to find out uh |
| 54:37 | what is uh what process is a best feasible to find out uh we we should also look uh other lab results or even field results and so on okay lab results feed results yeah okay I think when you have such things or papers or a cell they you can better decide what is yeah sometimes they they have sometimes they don't have lab results and field results but it seems like a very good idea don't you think friends I mean everything starts with an idea before it reaches lab results right right right yeah but uh that was |
| 55:29 | uh processes who have this or in front I think yeah that's right there's a higher level of Technology Readiness level that's it yeah okay thank you friends Brian yes I think um Brew Pierce identified that nature-based Solutions will have a high degree of social acceptance and also address the biodiversity planetary boundary and potentially uh the nutrient planetary boundaries of nitrate and phosphate um Robert Chris when I came in was talking about how long it takes to adopt things 30 years and whatnot but I know |
| 56:10 | it with interest that it took uh only two months to get a hundred million users for chat GPT and so if there's a technology that let's say exists today but that only requires you know a change of thinking in order to be adopted um that could be rather attractive um and it was interesting to note that openai the organization that did it was a non-profit um and so if we can find a compelling value proposition that enables us to refreeze the Arctic let's call it um uh regenerating charismatic Mega ecosystems and that includes the habitat |
| 56:58 | for the polar bear to have a tap for the walrus the habitat for whales and perhaps you know Nemo and the Great Barrier Reef the coral reef these are charismatic Mega ecosystems for which there is a huge amount of support to uh to actually preserve and regenerate so we found that rallying behind the idea of getting back to pre-industrial levels has been very attractive whether it's biodiversity whether it's nutrient or if it's just abundance of Life on in seas and soils and therefore I I like to embrace what Cambridge has |
| 57:41 | done and extend it slightly and that is the three R's reducing emissions removing greenhouse gases and re-brightening the planet because I thought it was very interesting and significant that we've measured a loss and brightness of planet Earth close to one watt per square meter according to the Big Bear solar Observatory and the series satellite and that just getting back to a brighter planet that existed pre-industrially would potentially have a compelling attraction as the third arm and so I just offer that as an OP you |
| 58:20 | know a platform to extend from and look forward to discussing it with everyone okay thank you Robert uh sorry Brian um Anton I we were gonna I've said I'd bring this in at half past nine and we're already 10 minutes over that and you still haven't been able to uh say what you wanted to say it you have okay and have you been here the only other thing allowed is I have a couple documents that uh I I will share next week that's it okay okay and so the answers have been useful to you you've been Gathering |
| 58:56 | uh opinions okay good okay Robert well yeah just a couple of ways quick observations one um I like it's a nice try uh Brian but the comparison of chat gbt um that doesn't really hold water for reasons which I don't need to go into now but it's a that was a bit cheeky but more to the point I just wanted to ask I wanted to ask has anybody discussed this uh website proposition with our friends in hpac well half of our friends are I think are here now well absolutely but there's another steering committee at hpac which |
| 59:33 | I'm not a member of I don't know what they're doing but um but they're also in the same space having similar discussions and if we go back to the point that Voodoo was making that you know the community needs to act um together it might be sensible before we go off doing our own thing yeah builds a bridge there and has a conversation yeah does it had is there anyone here who's also sort of going between those them as well and being part of that my intention was once noack and the climate Foundation |
| 1:00:05 | get aligned and agree on to a pathway then I would be going to hpac and to other groups that might want to be part of that big tent sort of you know unified voice approach so that that sequentially will happen but I I wouldn't go talk to them today I would be careful with that approach because if you fix your approach first and approach other people it may not necessarily work it's better to bring them in earlier not when you've already fixed what you want yeah I'm actually active with the hpac |
| 1:00:37 | Steering group and I believe that these overall approaches are aligned and you know we'll want to of course you know optimize and refine but um I don't think it's far off okay is anyone trying to tell me something here uh like I should be doing something different or extra if not you want to offer one thing in response to Robert and that is uh yeah it takes a while to do physical things unless those physical objects already exist but the fact is the communication today is so much faster than it was when |
| 1:01:16 | um you know we're just getting telephones that things do happen more quickly if we can find the right social recipe the right social approach to to making it work yeah so um you know it it's interesting to see how these adoption waves are increasing in speed partly because of an increased speed of communications yeah okay but let's not let's not I don't want to go into the into that may I please respectfully ask if you two want to continue that discussion that you did do it offline maybe tell us the answer that you come |
| 1:01:52 | up with no it's not a problem I mean it's just a set of fact you know what Clive you're getting easy grin from me because I did my economics honest thesis on exactly what Brian just said 42 years ago so there you go on let's go under the next start let's go to the next thing okay so um I think I have to share um so share and the next thing is um me introducing High sea surface temperatures I've I've forgive me I haven't really read much about that I mean they started talking about this |
| 1:02:26 | maybe a month or so ago uh I heard somewhere that the Atlantic um I think it was scripts or Woods Hole lady saying they were off the virtually off the scale uh C7 so so I mean we we know but friends and I've friends has been telling me about you know writing about this the the I mean we've we've been talking about this problem of uh stratification prevents which prevents nutrients mixing so much so you assume that you get less of Underpants than growth wherever the that you get the highest sea surface temperatures you get |
| 1:03:02 | migration of species um so we've been discussing the the problems of this for at least a year in this group um but I don't have anything specific to say about the the current situation does anyone have anything yeah I've read a little bit about this Clive um I think the recent information is not the generic thing about increasing stratification or anything at all um the scripts people produced some uh maps showing the Heat and the particular area they focused on was actually the North Sea um and they show that temperatures off |
| 1:03:35 | the east coast of England and Scotland were up to in places five degrees above normal which in the marine environment is quite an exceptionally large um difference um and they put it down I think to changes in things like currents and things if I remember rightly um so I think there is some particular reasons why it's happened it's a bit like some years ago there was the so-called blob off the uh west coast of uh US and Canada which caused um massive problems there and again that was a very extreme particular case |
| 1:04:14 | yeah reasons in that case that was to do with that Welling um but so I think um it is unique and but there are increased General increases if you look at the I think it was Noah produced some global average temperatures for the ocean and suggested that there were significant increases on an average across the ocean but there were obviously hot spots like the North Sea as part of that but I haven't gone into it in any more detail than that okay okay a good climate reanalyzer today you can see it very plainly and |
| 1:04:45 | it's pretty horrific actually look at the sea temperature normally um finding the link influence do you want to share your screen with us uh Brew I think it's worth looking at uh it's certainly interesting to look I can remember to find it then I guess I found it and it is worth looking at um the operational five kilometer sea surface temperature anomaly charts shows a dark red pool of warm water in the North Sea yeah it's Frank pretty terrifying yeah it's um it's a little just a little seed now |
| 1:05:25 | it's right out across um the west coast of Ireland all the way down about four degree area is is very extensive in fact most of the biscuit around we'll see as well so it's been developed right down to Senegal yeah and right over to Greenland balting too yeah it's a huge amount of hot water moving up into the Arctic yeah and then we've just had that big heat wave in the west Siberian plane um and that's pouring hot fresh water into the Arctic as well um then hang on to your hats yeah so it's |
| 1:06:02 | what we what we fear then is uh accelerated ice melt and I guess this this is the scary thing about they're not even showing the colors for the Siberian sea or the Arctic sea and uh you know that's probably a critical spot they do have a bit over Finland and it doesn't look good there yeah so I think it's not just melting the ice from beneath uh hating the air so I'm melting the eyes from above because of hot hotter air I as I understand also you have more human that means your air is more humid in the |
| 1:06:42 | Arctic which means your clouds are thicker and for most of the year in the Arctic I only learned recently that the clouds provide a warming even low-level clouds have a warming you know they trap more heat than they than they reflect so yeah near the Galapagos there are four and five degrees above you know yeah that that that's particularly something that gets affected if I Remember rightly by the El Nino which will probably exacerbate that agreed yeah yeah okay that's it really I think John yeah I think we need to take advantage of this |
| 1:07:23 | this this shows that the ipgc approach of trying to keep under 1.5 degrees is now ludicrous yet into the in the latest edition of new scientists is all talk about um how emissions reduction could you know by you know if we can keep to our plants and Net Zero we can keep below 1.5 C it's now you know obviously yeah this would be wonderful for you to write something about this uh yeah and make this part of our education on our website yeah drafted something already yeah great yeah you understanding it yeah you're right very clearly on these |
| 1:08:13 | issues I'll I'll copy that to noac right right thank you John um anything else on this subject because lots of other things and then we've got so we've got 40 minutes remaining I put the link in the chat if you want to play around with Library analyzer okay thank you very much Bruce can I can I mention something technical um any room in five minutes at the push of a button and it consumes almost no um I've had um I had an experience on uh the HCA call one Saturday after 40 minutes I was cut off |
| 1:08:58 | and they were rejoin and somebody else had the same do we know if uh well soon we're changing their conditions so that I hope not uh just uh Peter fikowski uh because I think it was using one of uh his um Zoom lines which has gone to a free service which Zoom calls for that service are limited to 40 minutes all right okay a few I thought it might be change of policy no I don't think so yeah just a change in funding yeah yeah yeah okay Rebecca and uh Robert Chris um about the uh came to climate repair Marine Cloud brightening progress |
| 1:09:45 | please would you like me to do the first Robert well you're muted Robert this is going to be very brief for me because I regret to say that I was not a diligent uh participant in this uh I was in the room but I was mostly engaged in conversation with others rather than paying attention to what was going on with the demonstration but let me just say from the conversations I had previously had with both Hugh hunt and with Jake Chapman who is the um the final year student that was doing the actual work on the uh submit on the |
| 1:10:23 | on the um nozzles to produce the submicron droplets um They concluded that um it was probably possible but it was certainly not straightforward and there was a lot more development work that needed to be done before it was achievable because the site because they're just it's just complicated and the way that the materials behave at that degree of smallness uh is very challenging uh so uh um they did produce droplets and they got some interesting results but um the whole business of scaling it up is also |
| 1:11:05 | you know producing an engineer and we thought before it's one thing doing stuff in a lab it's another thing you know engineering this for a hostile marine environment where this thing's got to work continuously you know um at Sea so um there are they made progress but I think not as much as John Salter would have liked Stephen and um you know they I don't I don't know where he goes from here at CCR whether they whether they will be working or Jake as I say the student involved uh I think is expected |
| 1:11:38 | to sign on to do a PhD there and quite likely to continue his research into this particular topic but that is yet I think to be confirmed and funded and so on and so forth okay all right thank you Robert um what would you like to add to that Rebecca um yes I will say that um Robert tulip is at the moment getting um go back half a step I have spent the last six months reading about MCB including everything there is to read laboratory wise I've listened to every podcast I'm aware of all the same difficulties |
| 1:12:17 | that you are Robin and I've also interrogated Steven's working papers to the nth degree sorry it's okay it's better to take a pause on this Dent stuff anyway um I wrote them up into a funding Proposal with um headings and chapters and that kind of thing similar to what Clive and Franz are doing on loose dust that has been workshopped by a small group which includes Robbie tulip and myself Stephen has seen it and it is in the process of being refined so everything you've said Robert is true about cloud microdynamics and |
| 1:12:58 | also um production of the aerosols and all that sort of thing Brian's also across it in detail where we're at at the moment is that Robert tulip is writing up that dent paper into about six to ten slides for a funder and um he's found a certain website where it says this is the best format to um to present stuff for a let's say a someone who wants to know the detail is there anyway it's a front-end slide deck when I spoke with Robbie yesterday morning he said that um he is finding out that there's more |
| 1:13:38 | and more detail to it and we had a bit of a laugh and I said to him look I could have told you that but the question is what is the detail and how is it going to be sorted out so it is a chicken and egg thing you've got a drill right down in into each thing aerosol production Cloud microdynamics climate impact that one should probably come first the what is the cooling power of the technology so it is a work in progress and I'm still willing to bet um you know a nice bottle of red wine from the kunawara valley which John McDonald |
| 1:14:10 | and Sev know what that means it's worth about a hundred bucks or 500 maybe um let's say a nice bottle of Grange Civ okay I'm willing to bet that that it's going to work but it's we're not there yet so Sev will you take my bet yeah I I just want to ask no I want to ask does anyone know they've seems to me however I'm perplexed that um they can't get it to work with having huge difficulties in Cambridge are there is anybody talking to Stephen Salter they didn't invite him |
| 1:14:45 | to present at their conference what's going on there that that is a hornet's nest and it's not an unpleasant secret one as far as I know Robbie dug into that a little bit he stayed with Stephen for three to five days in in Cambridge so I I can't tell you what it was all about except that it's not easy and there is a little bit of miscommunication let's say or cross purposes and like if he was here he could say himself what he wanted to say there is a backstory and the reason one of the reasons that Robbie asked all |
| 1:15:18 | about that was because I had already been asking him why don't Cambridge and Edinburgh seem to be talking so whether Brian or Doug or anyone else wants to say anything about that right at this moment I don't know but I'm I'm not the front person I'm the back person that's been hearing second hand at some length about this and um I think what Rebecca has just uh hinted is um is quite right that the relationship between Stephen and the guys that came which is not the easiest one I think |
| 1:15:53 | that they mutually find each other difficult working Partners okay all right okay all right that's fine very nicely said Robert very nicely yeah we don't want to stir up gossip or anything in here it's a fact and these things happen yeah yeah yes so uh I I I've known that there's something going on but I but I I wondered if people were trying to find a way to work together you know to sort of solve these problems because that's what matters is solving the problems you know what Clive the answer is absolutely yes |
| 1:16:25 | right there's a little team in myself Robbie Brian um even Ron and herb and you know I'm done comes to the meetings and whatever we're all all trying to unpick this problem pour love into the situation and get the relationship and like Robert is doing it too even though he's not coming to the gang of six on the Sunday morning so we it we are all actively working on this yes because what matters is that this gentleman the young man Jake Chapman gets the advice from Stephen Salter to get his nozzle working uh |
| 1:16:58 | efficiently because Stephen's confident that it can all work anyway so okay thank you and uh thank you Rebecca uh Chris your next yes um I wasn't quite sure that Stephen and Cambridge are really experts on the same thing because I didn't think Stephen was necessarily the expert on producing the particles he's certainly an expert on what size of particles are needed but that's a different thing um and by the way I'm just going to interrupt there Stephen had nozzles designed and they got lost when his Workshop in Cambridge |
| 1:17:34 | sorry not closed down intentionally tragedy in terms of this History of Science okay it can't be done the box is missed missing in action the move is lost it I'm sure they didn't pinch it because it had no value okay but Stephen got that far with it but then it's been lost and he's got to reinvent that particular wheel yeah so like you know and and Brian knows stuff too and in a minute he can speak but this is one of those tragic comedies that in 50 years if we're all still here we'll be able to have a laugh and I |
| 1:18:05 | might have won my bottle of Grange by then yeah okay there are other people are working on nozzles for these things it's not just absolutely particularly the people in California and also there's a paper which I just put a link in the chat to from the group in Australia who've been looking into diff how to produce different sized particles via various nozzles that might be of interest to some people I just wanted to point that out it's only fairly recent in the Google Groups and there's a link |
| 1:18:35 | to a paper there yeah thank you Chris that would be interesting to me actually if I'm sure others as well thank you thank you for that uh Brian please yes I'll just say that I'm in touch with each of these groups in California in Cambridge and in Edinburgh and I think there's an opportunity to create an umbrella of sorts that can enable a unified framework to move forward and the example I will use is the international astronomical Union which has managed to produce a decadal survey and get a consensus among astronomers as |
| 1:19:08 | to the funding and research priorities for the coming decade that's been done multiple times with the result of things like the James Webb Telescope I mean it's just a remarkable degree of coordination among an academic and perhaps sometimes a contentious group of people so that's the kind of organization we seek and we've proposed to create a new kind of iau just call it for the moment the international Albedo Union that would work to re-brighten the Albedo of the planet over time it's a |
| 1:19:34 | bit technical in Arcane but let's use the iau and the examples of organizing people effectively to build Upon Our fundability going forward I know it's interest that astronomy manages to get orders of magnitude more funding than the oceanography groups primarily because they're well organized and less fractious so I think there's an opportunity to build that umbrella if you will as we go forward right I think I just I'll just say I think they're very good at making pretty pictures the astronomical people |
| 1:20:04 | well we have we have charismatic Mega ecosystem it's a charismatic Mega fauna on our side so that's one of several tools that might be popular yes great Brian thank you okay um could I ask Robert Chris um whether he saw any examples of commercial spray nozzles with fairly wide apertures like a centimeter being tested at Cambridge because I suspect that they are not doing anything with my idea and I reckon that's that that's not a good idea they're trying all these other things which the missed opportunity |
| 1:20:42 | it's a missed opportunity yeah yeah the the BT nozzles the the schlick nozzles all should have been tried out at higher pressures and it's it's pretty easy to do yet they haven't done it well the answer a question service that I did not but then um that doesn't mean they're not they're not not necessarily doing it I wouldn't know I mean I've only I just looked at the things that they showed us so um okay is there any sort of connection with huge I mean I think anyways what's going on some issue about um |
| 1:21:18 | that you proposed I think there was something that Hugh mentioned that dude proposes a particular test that required a very large no I think it was actually I think it was that was uh John again that required that the The Proposal required a huge machine or a huge tube that that Hugh didn't have anywhere physically to put because I think one of the things that one has to remember you know we talk about CCR and uh and Cambridge and the engineering department and and so on but actually the resources that they have |
| 1:21:47 | are fairly Limited and it is a bit it's a bit of a you know I don't want to be unkind about this uh but it's a bit of a cottage industry when you get I mean they're using students to do the work and these are not like properly research funded uh projects where you go to ukri and you get a grant for you know one and a half million dot pounds to you know to to do stuff and you hire a number of those stocks to get in and do you know this they're doing this um on the side with students uh you know |
| 1:22:18 | in a fairly ad hoc fashion so and the facilities that they've got are relatively limited yeah physical facilities I mean you know actual even in terms of just space I mean the room the lab where um we went to see these demonstrations I had actually seen it a few months earlier when Hugh had only just got access to it and at that time it was literally an empty space that well if there was a door and four walls yeah that was it so it's really not getting enough money then really it's not a not a serious uh project really |
| 1:22:47 | it's not a mainstream um research activity let me put it this way so um you know I think so we need to we need to understand that and uh you know that's something we should bear in mind when we come to talk about these other things that you know and where the money goes and the funding yeah there is a research uh function here for any of the technologies that we uh decide are the most um attractive to take forward and there will need to be some serious money put into that research effort and though then that will require dedicated |
| 1:23:23 | facilities not you know kind of done not done in the way that um CCRC is doing at the moment which is a huge um low budget uh activity okay that's very good to be aware of that and keep that in mind you don't want to undermine or do you mean what they're doing because what they're doing is it's good stuff we shouldn't we shouldn't um over imagine the scale of what's happening there yeah yeah okay thank you very much Robert okay anything else on that Rebecca do you have another Point |
| 1:23:56 | um Chris yeah I was just going to come back and say I remember Hugh also mentioning some weeks ago that one of the issues was the difficulty of measurement of the actual air results and no doubt that's affected Again by what Robert said about their access to equipment and the rest of it so there is an issue with that just the difficulty of doing the measurement as well as actually getting the stuff of the right size to measure in the first place yeah actually do you know what Chris um you are an excellent you've got an excellent |
| 1:24:26 | memory um Stephen Salter has refuted in otherwise answered that particular point in another one of the zooms I've been on so what it is everybody's here has got a very precise memory and we're all trying to hang on to the details so that it adds up to something we don't make mistakes and the only thing I would like to say is let's all be no more than 51 but we can all be glass 51 full or 55 full because Robert what you just described about the students is probably the way that every invention has ever been done in history |
| 1:25:03 | and like Jake Chapman's thesis is absolutely blooming excellent Robert tulip has a copy of it and so I don't know what the equivalent is for um you know Engineers or whether he's going to get a Nobel Prize in physics or something but we should be very glad that this young man in cambridge's work and I know you're saying that I know you're not you're what you're trying to do is not get us to have overhyped expectations from this one young chapter in Cambridge so I like what you're |
| 1:25:31 | saying but I'm just putting a slight positive spin on it so that we can all end this meeting feeling really really really good about what is happening and that is my simple point I am 55 across yep okay thank you very much Rebecca Hugh has told me on more than one occasion that he considers Jake Chapman to be one of the best engineering students he's ever had okay great that's the we just hope that uh yeah so if he if he can't get it to work then if he can't get the nozzles to work then who can |
| 1:26:07 | yeah um Brian well there are different approaches to nozzles and I do want to repeat something that believe that Stephen Salter has has mentioned and that is there are some very easy ways of measuring the particle size by using uh seawater a saltwater solution uh it's possible to have the um the particles actually land on a glass slide for example and when they evaporate then you can actually measure in a optical or an electron microscope the size of the salt crystal that I ended up precipitating onto the glass and that will tell you |
| 1:26:45 | the the size fraction of the particles by reversing out the concentration of salt so there are some fairly easy techniques that are as simple as a a glass slide in some cases are they not doing that already no they're not okay well okay I mean neither Hue nor Steven's here so it's a little bit academic actually isn't it yeah using an extraordinarily sophisticated piece of kit that they have borrowed from a local company that has that has got one of these things that you can't afford to buy because it's hundreds of |
| 1:27:20 | thousands of pounds yeah they lend it to him periodically so you can use it for these experiments okay all right but maybe you could have done it a lot cheaper using Brian's way yeah anyway so I think it's it'd be better really if Hugh and esteem were here because so anyway then um John please oh look it's it's obviously an incredibly complex thing to test and measure and the other problem is it's getting consistency between tests because they vary each time apparently and yeah so reliability and and then |
| 1:27:54 | once once they get it it needs to be replicated by other other labs around the world and I think there's still still a few ideas that haven't been fully tested you know Sarah said his idea and I've I've got some ideas of using boiled water and re-entrating the salt brine back through that in fact I'm organizing a simple test here just to some guys with a particle analyze it just to uh measure that so there's there's different ways that I I think that it there may be a simpler way as |
| 1:28:24 | Brian says there may be a much simpler way using seawater itself that we should explore and then let's try and get a number of labs testing this and replica okay okay thank you John okay uh right so let's get back to uh the next thing all right okay so what do we got we've got 20 minutes for turquoise hydrogen um be nice to talk about the nutrients aren't well and oh yeah color removing um methane which is potentially interesting um okay let's spend a few minutes no more in five minutes should we |
| 1:29:06 | um Sev on turquoise hydrogen because this is in the news about the whole thing about blue hydrogen isn't it so we're wondering what's turquoise hydrogen yeah turquoise hydrogen is basically taking uh methane using a plasma torch powered by a renewable energy to split it into hydrogen and um carbon products including graphene now that should be able to in my in my workings produce green hydrogen I emissions free hydrogen much cheaper than seawater electrolysis so I'm trying to get various firms to to |
| 1:29:50 | to use the it's the higher up process which you use for that basically in the UK to to try to see whether they can actually produce graphene from this if they can then the hydrogen can can be produced almost at no cost because the graphene is so valuable right um can I ask um has this process of making hydrogen in this way from methane with a plasma talk has this been groups are doing it at the moment right and are they is it um uh profitable to make hydrogen this way for them I believe so right so the issue |
| 1:30:33 | here then is in fact I've got the the paper which I've put up uh on the chat does say that yes it is likely to be cheaper than green hydrogen okay then then green okay which is Renewables uh electrolyzing seawater so it's just taking me to so it's not yeah so so it seems like it's yeah carbon free because the carbon it doesn't you don't carbon dioxide it's rather clever you just get carbon powder which you then sort of bury somewhere or you get graphene that you can use so that so the |
| 1:31:05 | the issue here then is being able to make graphene rather than just sort of some sort of dumb powder then well graphene is a lot more available than than black carbon yeah yeah black carbon yeah it's a useful product for tires and things like that but graphene you can charge a couple of thousand dollars for a kilogram right yeah well okay so so is this your invention is this what you're putting forward it's not mine at all so okay someone else's turquoise and so there's something special about the |
| 1:31:34 | plasma that makes making the graphene yes that's part of my invention yeah they they say they can make a proportion of graphene but these are people who are using uh uh lower temperature to split the the methane and if you use the higher hybrid temperature one of High Rock you can get gaseous carbon which can then crystallize out on fast spinning uh uh uh cooled cooled rums to make graphene you get just like you like any crystallization process right and therefore you should be able to carve the the gas company so say hey |
| 1:32:18 | guys this is a way you can continue your business because you're not producing emissions you're producing yeah it's free hydrogen yeah okay all right so I mean it keeps coming up so there must be something in it so thank you for bringing that up I can give you a quick update on that because we organized the initial seed fighting Finance for High Rock we've now got further funding and they are developing last discussion on that was that they would provide be having to sell a unit to anybody who wanted to develop the |
| 1:32:51 | graphene development side of it they weren't ready to take on another project at that time but that was four months ago so I've actually got to have another conversation with Tim Davis sometime in the next few weeks to uh to see if we can encourage them forward right what do you think is it that um that there needs to be a strong a higher carbon tax a stronger carbon tax so that they don't uh because the thing is hydrogen is used and a great deal in Industry isn't it it's used to make all kinds of uh methanol and it's it's a |
| 1:33:26 | it's a sort of feedstock isn't it hydrogen I mean but even before we get to using it sort of cook our using our stoves and things and cars it's actually used by the chemical industry hydrogen it's quite expensive and so if you've got a way of making hydrogen that's carbon free and it's very carbon intensive I believe to make hydrogen in Industry you you do end up with an awful lot of carbon um in comparison to the gas that you have yeah and so it's definitely a problem to them as they take it to scale |
| 1:33:54 | so they should be open to uh developing the carbon into into many things from carbon fibers graphene yeah so it would strike me they've got a you've you've they've done the funding they've proved the technology they can't sell it because there's no carbon price and so industry it's carbon black no no there's lots of people who take their carbon as it is okay so they're not that worried but if the paints car tires you name it there's yeah of uses for carbon you know I realize that for carbon |
| 1:34:23 | powder but what I'm saying is to make hydrogen though but to use this mechanism to make hydrogen um rather than just do however it's done at the moment um carbon intensive CO2 intensity yeah depends on your feed source so the guy I'm working with uh next week is a major German Solar developer multi-millionaire so what what is that he's he's making hydrogen through electrolysis with all his Surplus solar power anything he can't sell off against terms making hydration okay yeah all right okay uh Robert Chris I just |
| 1:35:00 | want to just wanted to comment uh Sam do you know whether or not the way these processes are contemplated is to rely upon what you might call Waste renewable energy rather than renewable energy that's going going into the grid and going to be otherwise displacing fossil fuels that's what I would recommend they don't need to run continuously they can run say it at at midday when there's an excess of solar power and and because they saw the plasma torches aren't all that expensive it doesn't matter if they're idle for um |
| 1:35:34 | you know uh 18 hours a day they can still turn a good profit because I not not taking renewable energy from the task of replacing fossil fuels is a pretty in pretty important dynamic in all of these uh activities yep hmm great okay uh thank you Sev um next the give me for being a little bit bicep John um do you want to say some things about the or introduce people to a nutrient at Weller yeah let's talk to them maybe we could grab an image too if you can right but uh yeah this is one of our our climate arcs ideas with the Clive and |
| 1:36:21 | France and Dennis and myself uh it's um it's it's an idea that that simultaneously uh rewilds the ocean and then also restores private balance so it uses the this creation along with phytoplankton up dwelling and carbon drawdown I mean that's biomass biomass is is the key common biomass is carbon if we can if we can bring it up from the deep ocean we're particularly out in the open ocean areas um where there's very little uh biomass of course so it replicates the coastal areas where most |
| 1:37:00 | of the upwelling takes place naturally yeah that's an image we've just that that shows the concept in principle I mean it's a it's a large wide conduit flexible conduit that's towed behind ships or fishing trawlers and and it it drops down to a depth of yeah about two three hundred meters normally and it brings up those those Rich nutrients in cold water now the key is to is also have a heat exchanger at the top so that the cold water doesn't drop straight back down so that's at the end of the |
| 1:37:35 | device and so the it induces fireplace and blooms on the surface and of course those fighter plate divisions also uh create yeah Marine Cloud the aerosols through through DMs which is another cooling benefit so look it's got It's got a number of benefits we we're talking to the Australian Maritime College down here in in Tasmania about uh doing some more engineering many marine engineers and we need cfd modeling and we need um we need perhaps a tank test if it gets past that that Gateway um did you want to have some inclined |
| 1:38:13 | um I suppose um yeah we're thinking that you have to bring up you're not allowed to put something in the ocean so I suppose my starting point is you can plunder the ocean as much as you want but you can't put anything back in again you can't replace the nutrients um but um you are allowed to move things around in the ocean so so this is where we came we're coming from um you're not allowed to even add a tiny little bit of iron to the oat well maybe you are in small experiments and then |
| 1:38:43 | that might be up to be scaled up but um but the funding is sort of anyway um rather nervous because there might be a backlash and then politically it can't be done again or something or somebody might do another Rogue experiment but um but and but then also people say uh oceanographers fair enough they say well just you then run out of some other that macronutrients you know the um nitrate and phosphate depending where you are in the ocean and even silicate um so the micronutrients shouldn't be a problem so one ocean was very helpful |
| 1:39:21 | guy was speaking with said um you want to go as um shallow as possible to get the macronutrients you want without bringing up too much carbon you know because obviously dissolved organic carbon or you know high levels of bicarbonate you don't want to bring that up and then find you're just off-gassing oh is that outcropping CO2 um so that's that's the theory bring it bring up all the nutrients that would normally be mixed behind a ship that gets towed along gets pulled up here and it leaves behind and so you get a larger |
| 1:39:54 | huge surface area if it's profitable or not too much hassle for ships to tow these things around and be lifting nutrients up to the surface and you get a very large surface area with phytoplankton making their smell of the sea the DMS which which nucleates clouds could provide the the cooling to the oceans that you know these Sun these rapidly warming oceans could provide the cooling assuming the low-level clouds do the kind of cooling that's needed but I think in tropical areas this is mostly tropical and subtropical areas |
| 1:40:28 | where there isn't much growing in large areas of ocean um because the street seas are very stratified not quite quite naturally but there is a neutral Cline that's available um yep I'll leave it at that yeah Chris please 20 of the global fishing it's it's incredible just from the upwelling so we're really just trying to mimic that that upgrilling you know take coastlines out the open ocean yes that's right yeah and there's there's various versions we've come up with it's kind of showing |
| 1:40:59 | another one there this is the hose mesh device which is full of nutrients as well and uh yeah France has been very active in all these ideas too so we've got a number of ideas on the table the the nutrient upweller the deep ocean nutrient upwell is looking quite interesting uh you know it's got to have pneumatic tubes on the outside so your opposable inflates it and keeps the thing rigid that's the previous one of course so there's a bit of technology and we've spoken the material people about using |
| 1:41:30 | different products different materials to make it available so it's moving a lot so yeah that's another one there Clive showing which is a floating device a nutrient floating device which puts nutrients back in the ocean the idea of having something that's that's just retractable is quite attractive so you can just wind it back up onto a ship or drop it in in the appropriate location so it needs a bit of development obviously to take it further forward sorry John it does need it needs to move to the |
| 1:42:07 | next level that's right we need to move natural level modeling and Engineering to really test it out yeah what I like about this one is that might be 10 centimeters wide is it habitat uh I saw that in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch the more concentrated the garbage uh the more biomass there is because they like growing on these bits of plastic yeah um Chris please yeah um I assume from the description that you're trying to pull up the water from just beneath the surface mix layer which could be two to |
| 1:42:41 | three hundred meters deep itself so you may have to go down less or more depending on the location in which you are located um I think it's um you need to bear in mind that these uh ocean areas that are low in productivity um I I like it for a good reason and that habitat is actually quite an important one and if you look at something like the sargasso sea for example um discuss the sea commission has shown that these areas are very important for all sorts of Fisheries like tuna and other things so you need to think quite carefully I |
| 1:43:19 | think about how changes you might make to those locations um also there is productivity there but what you get is a low level of productivity turning over very fast because of the type of creatures that are there um blue-green algae and other things um so it's not that there isn't productivity there but it's a different type of productivity that's taken account of the low level of nutrients so they're recycling very quickly and that maintains a low level of productivity so there is some productivity there but |
| 1:43:51 | it's low level um so I think uh I would personally be quite concerned about trying to make what might be a major change in such an ocean area because as I said already some of these ocean areas like the custody actually have a lot of creatures and things living in them or passing through them migrating through like tuna and so on and so I think that's it's not just that this is a dead area that needs to be revived until the the term Des is not really correct no exactly exactly but all I do is return it to the sort of |
| 1:44:28 | level of abundance that it was historically and albeit that abundance may have been less than the open oceans but not not go beyond that well I would say those open those open ocean areas abundance is now as is as it was hundreds of years ago I don't think they are fundamentally different and that's why I think there is a there is a potential risk of trying to make major changes at scale because if you're going to do this to have a significant effect in terms of cooling you're talking of potentially a very large scale yeah |
| 1:45:01 | therefore you're probably going to change that environment yeah Chris where do you think the areas are less because you know large areas of a large proportion of Fisheries are either overfished or or uh close to sort of aren't they collapsing or close to you know closer Fisheries of course are not in the middle of the oceans yeah they're Coastal so is it really Coastal or within the um Coastal Continental shells kind of little slope areas yeah yeah okay thank you um Brian yes um so first of all I think it's |
| 1:45:35 | important to recognize that we have perturbed vast areas of the ocean and has been demonstrated with the Lee paper nature climate change which documented a five percent increase in Ocean stratification globally and up to 20 percent increase in Ocean stratification uh in the tropics and subtropics so just getting back to pre-industrial levels of upwelling will be a first Challenge and an opportunity secondly nutrient upwelling in one form or another is what we've been promoting for years with Marine permaculture at the climate |
| 1:46:07 | Foundation John McDonald has helped us for years that overall approach I think it's helpful to put it in the context of an overall approach I will say that we have the largest Deep Water Irrigation platform on the planet right now at a quarter acre and we're one step away from building an economically sustainable Hector that could be replicated thousands of times across the oceans and it turns out it takes two orders of magnitude less energy to um to to move Muhammad to the mountain than to move the mountain to Muhammad |
| 1:46:38 | and specifically we're talking about moving the algae down to below the thermocline and soaking up nutrients which it does very well at a concentration ratio of ten thousand to one it's also helpful to understand that the productivity levels in the mostly empties of tropical oceans are several orders of magnitude lower than they are in coastal regions and thus it's helpful to put a perspective on that as well so I just wanted to put in the context of marine permaculture and we appreciate John's efforts and others to really |
| 1:47:09 | bring forward the need to keep you know restore natural upwelling restore circulation and that can help to keep the biodiversity alive in the ocean it's truly truly Brian the thing is to move forward with a whole Suite of complementary Solutions I mean it Marine permaculture is terrific and and some of these other ideas could be added to that with we don't want to we want to be working together there's not one solution here there's only many solutions and they all contribute and work together that that's that's the way |
| 1:47:40 | to do it and balance balance itself out I agree and you know we're offering um Marine permaculture as a subject heading you know it's got its own Wikipedia page at this point I'm just saying that there are many ways of achieving yeah uh you know a good uh multi-specific um uh healthy ecosystem and and so we'd suggest um that using Marine permaculture as an umbrella for that would be good and we'd welcome you know lots of technologies that achieve the goals which would be helpful I'm running |
| 1:48:10 | a paper right now with John Holmgren on applying that doesn't permaculture principles to the marine environment But it includes these these all these approaches and we like to think of marine permaculture broadly great thank you Brian thank you um we've got we've reached our uh hour and a half living I'm just wondering what else um there's two more people want to speak um uh who've got their hand up who should be allowed to speak um and uh so I think Chris do you mind if we could leave that yeah leave that |
| 1:48:45 | for another time yeah so let's so if anyone needs to leave now if you've got something else to go to um then thank you very much for your time and see you again soon but otherwise I'll just uh we'll just hear from Chris and and Sev please Robert sorry Robert Chris and Sev yeah but you're ba muted Robert do you want to go first levels like um I I I'll go first um John um in some locations where there are strong uh undersea currents you actually won't need a vessel and the huge amounts of power to to do the |
| 1:49:25 | upwelling you just need to tether the system and let the cards do the work for you yep that's that's true that's right to ever yeah you can just you can just anchor it and and coming down the East Australian current I mean it flows up to seven knots and then there's a lot of energy there and and that's that's the coast that's that's where you want the upwelling so I mean you know adding to upwelling that's that's already taking place is is a good thing to do if we can |
| 1:49:55 | just boost that sure if we can and if we can tow without using too much diesel obviously that would be a good thing um ultimately ships will go will be powered without diesel but uh yeah look it's a starting point is using conventional vessels but you're right there's a number of ways this could work the the beauty of it though is with a vessel you can you can deploy and retract it so you know it's not something you're leaving out there it's going to be safe of course so you can it doesn't fall apart but if you can take |
| 1:50:31 | it up and it's a nice thing to say well we've done our job here and we'll move somewhere else um it Mooring and tethering has is fraught with problems as well that that's right you can certainly do it that way yeah I agree yeah that was a Canadian proposal I saw some years ago to tether something similar to that on the continental slope to do that sort of thing Brian Brian and I've been up to lizard Island where we we dived off the continental shelf I mean it's it just dropped straight off there it's it's |
| 1:51:05 | fantastic the way it drops down to thousands of meters right is taking place of course that's that's what Opera has been working on for years did you withdraw your comment then Robert my I want to just pick up on uh on Chris's comment earlier on some of you may have watched all or part of the nas Studio engineering workshop last week but on I watch bits of it and one bit I did get was the bits of the session that they did on Ocean Tech ocean methodologies on Friday morning and the one contribution from that was |
| 1:51:48 | from Margaret linen who many of you a name that many of you will recognize she's a sort of diyan of U.S environmental science and she was asked the question actually a question put to all of the panel members which was which of the ocean technologies that we've been discussing would you consider to be the most attractive which one do you favor best and her response was uh and it's very I think apocite here I can't recommend any because any of these approaches that is going to be done at a climatically |
| 1:52:25 | significant scale is going to have significant ecosystem impacts within the ocean so until there is a comprehensive environmental impact assessment I'm on the fence those not her words but that was the message and I think that um I think that for those who are um and this does certainly doesn't include me but for those of you that you know that are working on this you should bear in mind that at some stage in order to realize your dreams you're going to have to get regulatory approval from somewhere or multiple places and those |
| 1:52:59 | places are going to be calling upon the likes of Margaret Lyman to a pine on whether or not these Technologies should be deployed so from an early stage you might want to be thinking about how you would address those issues when they arise because they surely will arise thank you Robert okay let's leave it there on that note it's very good point thank you I think we need to add one sentence to it and that is we've had 30 years of prevarication after the Rio Declaration of 1992 which included Jacques Cousteau |
| 1:53:32 | and 170 world leaders and they simply said section 15 do not let scientific uncertainty be a cause for an action and yet we've been using a weak form of the precautionary principle for 30 years as an excuse to do nothing the deeper application of the precautionary principle is why would we in what Universe would we consider venturing further into Uncharted Territory with our civilization in terms of climate disruption with no precedent whatsoever we should be restoring the precautionary principle in its deepest form is to |
| 1:54:03 | restore pre-industrial conditions to the point where we can have a safe climate for Humanity so I I would encourage us to really dive in deep on the precautionary principle and get Beyond this prevarication which has not served Humanity for the past 30 years I totally agree with that I totally agree with you Brian but unfortunately we're not in that world and and you know it is a real it's a real issue how we how we break through that I mean and that is actually a kind of a separate threat because it doesn't apply just to |
| 1:54:36 | the issues you're talking about here you know we're talking about here it applies to almost every aspect and it's the kind one of the things that I find absolutely fascinating is how we are driving ourselves to extinction by adherence to these absolutely bizarre standards but we could do that we absolutely have the capacity to kill ourselves off and right now I think yeah take care we might die oh you've died anyway yes yeah okay Brian just read out then should be our mission statement on the website I mean this is |
| 1:55:18 | a really important point it's making um we should reinforce that I think that's that's the key to it yeah well the seek out evidence of the amount of life that was around pre-industrial um I would be anecdotal a lot but you know the the the cancer the early explorers old Fisheries records old forestry records have all this stuff to hand because it's not hard to get hold of well it just needs to be assembled and that's a major education Point yeah are you taking all this in John listen uh because uh brew has got wonderful uh |
| 1:56:00 | records of all this you know ancient not exactly ancient but you know from a few hundred years ago how abundant life was in the ocean and and so forth yeah uh Brew is a great resource you're you're muted John we shouldn't forget though that man had mankind has routinely from the episode destroyed its its local habitats as part of its survival mechanism and then as it's done that it's moved on to fresher Fields some indigenous peoples have learned how to relate to their lands as if as an as a Heritage but routinely |
| 1:56:38 | mankind has basically crapped on its own doorstep and the difference now is we're doing it at an extraordinary extraordinary successful scale yeah scale and now and speed and intensity yeah yes yeah I've been thinking along very similar lines uh Robert I guess we all have anyway I'm going to call it for close thank you very much everybody a wonderful details stop it please I want to say something oh sorry friends you put your hand up I missed it sorry um I wanted to say if if someone says you're disturbing the the ecosystem |
| 1:57:23 | when we want to restore ecosystem uh pre-industrial then I would say this is not the ecosystem which has been placed here in uh pre-industrial time you know if someone says you disturb the ecosystem it's a wrong ecosystem we have now it's not the ecosystem we had in pre-industrial time that may be the case in some cases but it's not necessarily Universal and I would argue that it's not the case with the open ocean areas at all foreign below the Forex Zone where you have a lot of uh harrogen carbonate or CO2 and it's |
| 1:58:20 | largely acidic from the down falling organic organic carbon from the from the from the algae and future plankton a letter yeah in in pre-industrial times you you haven't had this uh this layer because um you had a lot of fish lots of animals which brought carbon from from the from the federal plant layer down to the to the depth in these times you had not these oxygen minimum Zone yes my that's my point I think there have always been oxygen minimum zones the |
| 1:59:22 | only difference now is the intensity and extent of the oxygen minimum zones they are more extended and more intense than they ever used to be but there always would have been oxygen minimum zones below the surface mixed layer to some degree and I would certainly say your description crowns I don't believe there's evidence for that that those there was no oxygen minimum terms below that layer if you have your pre-industrial issue which go up and down you have totally other system then you have that already currently |
| 1:59:56 | you know I I have to I wonder I want to leave you with one last observation that we should absolutely go to the pre-industrial ecosystem when there were only 800 million people problem solved yes okay well it'd be good if we could speak about this again next time thank you very much everybody I will send you all a three-page paper for you to digest thank you bro good night everybody |