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| 00:17 | foreign good evening everyone good morning hi serve up bright and early at six o'clock as always yes indeed and Rebecca as well yes welcome everybody and I think Brian says he's going to be with us today and Manor Joe I guess it's one one PM for you is it manager what what am I using I'm asking if it's 1pm in the in the afternoon are you in the west coast are you an East Coast yeah it's 4 P.M 4 P. |
| 01:11 | M yes okay well uh no what am I doing here let's get the agenda there seems to have been a lot of a little bit more interest than usual this week people saying send me the link and so forth um all right not that's not that's a good thing though is it everyone's getting really worried um I hope you're all thinking of things to talk about I don't have to rise it out of you so um uh Sev you've suggested um something didn't you uh I sent you a couple of things but we should also probably talk about whether |
| 02:04 | we should be more or less open to the uh to the trolls of this world the trolls okay talk about the trolls and Stephen I see that you're the first one to join as well uh right so uh okay well I've asked this question to this group before and the the answer I thought I got back was no they didn't want this and I've and I've said so in the email that goes out please don't you know share with trusted friends but not don't put this on don't make it publicly available so we could briefly revisit that uh |
| 02:44 | um let's put that at the end well yeah let's put it in because people not everybody's there at the beginning so uh what do you call it trolls uh call it um do we want to talk about Robert Chris's uh um cat GPT stuff if you I mean you can suggest it I'm not that bothered because to me it's garbage in garbage out uh I thought it was just a useful uh summary of what most of the ipcc about that and therefore telling us where they where they need to be corrected yeah live I've gotten a gender item yeah um |
| 03:37 | to talk about iron sold aerosol and um geomip right I'd like to put that further up so yeah let's see and salt aerosol and G what's Geo map I've heard of it it's the geoengineering um modeling program okay all right great okay good morning John McDonald and France yes not to forget friends all right uh okay so um I think it was something else was there something else I haven't said uh okay so there was also the um one atmosphere report one atmosphere report that's the unep report oh yeah the unep report okay so |
| 04:40 | let's see if that you and EP yes so that was um we get the adjective you use something like misguided that's right misguided all right good afternoon Doug Okay so we've got a made a big thing here maybe one yeah yeah friends yep only shot uh very short to uh s-a-i you were okay it was always right yes okay Sai um where should we put Sai uh let's put it here shall we uh because there's been a reply uh from Doug McMartin I'm from Reno as well yeah uh okay by the way I don't really look |
| 05:45 | at the chats during the meetings I find I need to just pay attention to what everyone's saying so um but as everyone knows I put the chat up in the email at the end um so if you want to say something to me just speak up basically um I wonder also uh it struck me today looking at I'm working on Francis paper um about uh and uh aircraft these days modern airliners fly in the lower Stratosphere and uh there's a reference to say that between four and seven million tons of black carbon is emitted by by aircraft |
| 06:23 | uh and given for adoption circulation doesn't seem much of a surprise that it's ending up in the polar regions and most aircraft presumably flying the Northern Hemisphere so most of it's sending up in the Arctic there's an Arctic Haze a pool of smug that appears in the Arctic especially uh in the early spring because it all gathers during the winter and darkening the ice and darkening the ice so I've actually emailed Peter Wadhams already because we know he's sampling he's taken samples from the ice |
| 06:52 | I'm kind of hoping he's going to be here uh because he's hard to get hold of hello Paul we've seen you seen your emails yes and they're welcome first time with this group I went to Rag and invented a couple other sorts of pleasure I'm I want a learning curve here okay like so many of us well I think we're all on some kind of learning curve um so I've just said that about um black carbon so I wonder if it's worth repeating there's nothing much more to say about it than that at this |
| 07:27 | stage um okay Paul um or anyone anything else to add it might be room for just about one more thing I mean uh yes um there was a a foundation for climate restoration Forum meeting yeah um which a lot of us went to including ah Jim Hansen yeah cool right yeah that was on uh on Saturday uh I'd suggested a input uh for the HCA meeting and then discovered that it clashed with this Forum okay so what is there to say about that uh foreign climate restoration meeting |
| 08:38 | on Saturday upt okay okay all right so uh let's go with that um we uh well I haven't met you before uh Paul uh is Paul still there uh I can't see Paul anymore uh oh let's uh let's just let's just start them with with you then so oh you've turned off your camera do you mind uh just doing a quick very very brief introduction to yourself Paul please ideally with your camera on if you if it's working well I will I'll get around there if it comes up it should there we are we can see you yeah well I am a retired |
| 09:30 | professor of geography in Illinois Illinois State University um got into biochar production got into cooking stores micro gasification in 2001. and my law it's a long story into there in my retirement years and everything else so I've got a pretty good reputation on making Queen Cooks the ocean at like something that you know it can help the climate process afterwards person was cooking and got into biochar and then the climate issues and the uh climate the carbon dioxide removal part I invented a a kiln called Rock rocc |
| 10:18 | rotatable covered cavity Kiln uh portable small less expensive it has its different features a lot of stuff is written up okay my website is woodgas.com and there's many many things in there so I've recently gotten into the uh the clutches of you guys I see many familiar faces here but I I am intrigued with the idea of uh planet planet cooling okay yeah and I am not in favor of the high stratospheric type of stuff like that I haven't gotten to that part yet but certainly uh Marine Cloud brightening |
| 11:07 | I think which would help to refreeze the Arctic make a great deal of sense to me and we need to make some things my main hot button is impact and I have to say I'm very frustrated with how little impact I've been able to have thus far so uh we'll see what happens here great thank you very much okay and we're hoping that's great and we hope that by teaming up um I mean this group is I'm deliberately keeping this as a just a discussion group as you see we just set the agenda at the beginning some of the other |
| 11:41 | groups are kind of more um sort of oriented towards uh organizing to have an impact um so this is more of an idea generator or just a general keeping up to date with stuff I'd like to put something else in here um I'll just put cooking stoves I'm going to take responsibility and put my own name there cooking stuff because it relates to because it's really uh soot from especially equatorial regions uh anyway so let's start with Robert tulip please thank you thanks Clive um hello everyone um so can I just suggest that people put |
| 12:30 | themselves on mute if they're not planning to speak because there's just a bit of interference coming through yeah good idea um I'll just uh share screen to uh to look at this report I haven't read the whole thing but it's um it's about the um scientific and Community Building roles of the Geo engineering model in the comparison project past present and future and uh some of the names of authors are extremely well known in the uh in the geoengineering space so vigiani Kravitz roebok Haywood |
| 13:09 | uh very familiar names to me and and probably to others um the uh the concern that I have the race the reason I raise it in relation to iron salt aerosol is um there's a list of all of the experiments that that the geomet project has done on um on looking at uh at the effects of of specific geoengineering interventions and I don't think any of them uh friends might be able to speak on this uh whether any of these uh have had any uh discussion of unsold aerosol as uh in terms of of modeling its cooling impact and it just seems to |
| 13:57 | be to me to be a a motor Gap in in the studies like you know I often see people talking about the you know what are the priorities for geoengineering and people say stratospheric aerosol injection and Marine Cloud brightening and the problem with iron salt aerosol is that it's um so multifactorial like it's it's got It's got numerous uh impacts and uh so you know people like Andrew lockley have said well you know it's too complicated um and I don't I have no idea whether you know Kravitz or |
| 14:34 | um any of the vigione any of these other uh modeling gmf people I don't even know if they're aware of iron salt aerosol and and so um I mean to me you know the idea that uh the Marine Cloud brightening vessels might include a bit of iron um uh in the in the Mist that they create uh seems to be a very good idea in terms of of increasing the uh the impact of marine Cloud brightening but where's the modeling so I just I'll leave it at that and just be interested in comments perhaps from friends and |
| 15:11 | from Stephen Salter I'll just stop the show though okay thank you Robert you want to say something friends yes I wonder Auto why uh Isa method is not more in discussion within these papers I don't know why but it but I noticed it also oh okay we could say we've essentially say we've failed to promote it successfully not from Life 20 years time in promoting but yeah that's right another Prof in in Harvard or uh at other places so I have no yeah no voice it's a it's a very much downloaded paper your 2017 paper that uh |
| 16:06 | you did with Renault and a couple of others and Reno's done another paper on it since then uh that you took uh contributed something to I believe Robert yes yeah very good summary paper um and there's the recent uh MIT review um of so that was very recent um I think it's finally getting noticed uh but did not you know so that gmip that that paper you just put up um uh Robert is that that's very recent is it uh yeah well it was it was a pre-print that was circulated last year um on the geoengineering Google group and uh and |
| 16:48 | then the uh I've put the uh the link to the uh to it in the chat um and um yeah so uh it's it just um surprises me that um as I say uh I've never had any uh direct contact um I must say with like I've seen their papers but I have never seen any of these uh modeling authors uh participate in any uh of these uh Zoom conversations um and I just feel like uh we've got this massive Gap here you know there's all of these uh all the wonderful people who are here today no none of us are computer modelers |
| 17:30 | um and um I'm not sure if any of us have ever spoken to a computer modeler I certainly never have um and uh but you know though uh like I know John Nissen has got quite an interest in this topic in terms of um how the uh how the modeling um uh you know fails to to engage with the uh the likely impacts of of Arctic melting um and and so uh you know just uh getting the the conversation uh about uh modeling and like why is science SOL aerosol left out uh you know uh how how do they respond to the uh to the criticisms of uh of of failure to uh uh |
| 18:15 | to consider factors that they don't understand um you know just uh uh so those those are Stephen Salford might have a comment uh yes um it's the paper is a very good collection of all the papers that they've done it's a useful server but the thing that struck me about it though was that they have completely ignored the mobility uh and the high speed of marine Cloud brightening's reversals uh all they've done is assumed that your um treating the same way in the same place all it all the time now there's at least |
| 18:57 | a ten to one range of differences in the the susceptibility of marine Cloud brightening depending on the solar input and initial conservation of nuclei and lot life and the thickness of the Marine boundary line all that sort of stuff and they haven't taken into account that boats can move around be controlled by an intelligent Fleet controllers who will send them to where they're going to do the best job and stop them going to places where it will be a waste of time we're working the wrong way so we need to get the sort of uh |
| 19:34 | clever way of picking the show pickings of the best places in accordance according to a merit order and these will change around a good deal with El ninos and and even the seasons of the year uh if we got very good information now from satellites and we can move to where we're going to do the best job and this is completely ignored by the whole of the uh of the of the modeling Community I was very puzzled about this and I found out one of them sort of slightly ashamedly said it's because they didn't know how to to change the |
| 20:15 | models in order to to adjust the times and the places that when the treatment was going on all the people who designed the models of long dead and nobody really knows how they work on the inside so we perhaps have to start a new kind of a climate model done with a tiny team of completely new people who are able to think in in a fresh way about it okay thank you this is just a classic example of of how uh you know models uh they present really uh they are crude simplifications and um what happens is uh is that those |
| 20:56 | crude simplifications then get uh taken up and uh and treated like some sort of gospel and uh it's uh it means that you know something like uh iron solid aerosol or they say uh you know it's it's got um Marine Cloud brightening effects um it's got uh uh ocean iron fertilization effects sorry the me saying thing is the biggest really very important thing that it can do well who knows you know where's the modeling um like I I my my suspicion suspicion is that the me uh methane thing is is not the biggest I I think |
| 21:35 | that the Marine Cloud brightening effect May well be bigger in terms of uh cooling return on investment than the methane effect but um you know who's to know when you've got this uh you know methane Community who have essentially expressed shock and horror about geoengineering and so they've excluded geoengineering from their discussion of iron Sol error so I think it's I think that's uh that's that's a uh um uh I can't think of the word to use is foreign yeah it is but uh but Sev uh like the |
| 22:08 | same issue apart applies to uh to your work you know where's the modeling of your work you got your hand up yeah yeah they've um they've also admitted the ocean brightening effects of both uh uh bubbles in the ocean surface and as you say of of buoyant flakes both of which have I believe major effects I think on the Isis side they simply haven't done it because they simply don't know how to model it I think it's it's too difficult for them but they should have said that and that that this is a potential thing |
| 22:46 | but that they they don't know how to model at the moment and they haven't bothered experimenting with it I think it's it's uh recording from the difficult rather than addressing it uh uh forthrightly because maybe that would raise funds you know people might come along and say well do you need more money then um yeah and it's a bit surprising that just that Jim hayward's on that list and he was one of the presenters at the uh conference we had the presentation we had at The Institute of mechanical |
| 23:19 | engineers in 2019 there was keynoted by Sir David King on iron salt aerosol we had Renault speaking for whatever it was 20 20 minutes 20 30 minutes on iron salt aerosol the whole thing was about new tools for climate repair iron salt aerosol Jim Haywood gave one of the speeches surprising that he's that he's on that list but has decided to ignore it now so is anyone does anyone have I mean I've got Jim hayward's email address he he did reply to me once you know does anyone have time to contact when we know these we know of |
| 23:57 | these people do we know them personally I got to know quite well in when he came to Melbourne Clyde you gave a talk at Monash University right and uh had lunch with him afterwards I I got uh I could approach him a few years ago but uh he he is he's a very experienced bloke he's he knows he knows a lot about this whole area right and he struck me actually as a friendly very helpful guy actually yes he's very open-minded prepared to look at new ideas he was certainly open to discussing geoengineering yeah so yeah |
| 24:29 | okay okay the the trouble is that this paper is about the community building role of geomip and uh like I would like to think that uh people on this call are part of this community that they would like to build but I feel like I certainly feel totally shunned by them um and um so uh you know I I'd just like to see the conversation um open up a bit more you know what's the relationship between modeling and all of the uh different building options is there I mean so what can be done because so they've raised a very good |
| 25:08 | point Robert what can be done is can you could you do have another article published about why aren't these people or do they do they provide if they say look we're building a community here's how to get involved are they given an email address or a website to get a model they're just saying this is the community it's simple just get a PhD in atmospheric physics and you're part of the community uh-huh right good face good a letter be sent to to one of the the journals a very short-lated just saying this seems to be |
| 25:37 | a gap in the paper could do I mean yeah anyone can send a letter whether you get a reply or whether it makes any difference is maybe maybe it will maybe it won't but I think newspaper articles where where you know that's what gets a response doesn't it gets people talking okay friends yeah I think the main problem is that so many Branch scientific branches are attached by this processes by us for instance so they hope someone else will do it you must uh well and you can see it from the from the uh discussion with |
| 26:30 | a journalism and uh uh Ron bainman which I started yeah uh you know the the Sai people they they did a paper about the UV restriction by um uh stratospheric uh error story yeah and they found out it would restrict the UV radiation by more than 20 percent yeah okay uh and uh Francis sister likes the general I think this is the next agenda it's it's uh similarly nice I'm saying yeah there are so many different science branches and the people from physics or other other kind of uh uh science they don't know the whole spectrum they |
| 27:39 | don't think about academics that's a problem I think yeah they just think about the physics and and forget that there's a lot of atmospheric chemistry going on as well and also biogeochemistry and biology like that's that's the trouble you know it's so interdisciplinary and uh and people struggle to have an interdisciplinary conversation and uh in some ways you need people like us who are outside any of the specific disciplines because when like if you're an atmospheric uh physicist then you know it's like if |
| 28:12 | you're if you've got a hammer everything looks like a nail um and uh you know people's psychology gets constrained by uh by their discipline and uh you know it means that you got somebody like Alan roebok you know how ridiculous you know being one of the leading geoengineering uh experts who's totally opposed to geoengineering uh you know it's it just seems to me that you know that sort of conversation needs it needs a lot more public scrutiny and Community Building he's reposed the same problem exists in |
| 28:42 | the medical profession of course with Specialists who are very good at what they do but they're in their own area and they don't really work together very closely in solving a patient's problem it's a very similar parallel way yeah I keep saying the same thing no one can solve this huge problem on their own and so it's going to have to take learning to collaborate which is what we're trying to do here which is what we are doing um that's why this uh this paper having community building in its title it just |
| 29:11 | opposes the challenge of well what are they actually doing to build community and you know do they recognize like you know there was that uh very nasty email I saw from vizioni um just attacking Andrew lockley and saying I want nothing more to do with you now I you know I think Andrew's um you know he's got he's a bit strange in some ways um but uh but yeah he's like he's on this list by the way yeah uh and uh I'm not not sorry I'm not I'm not criticizing Andrew I like it I think you know this community building |
| 29:44 | aspect of this work and you know how does modeling in um but Rebecca wants to speak we all have our quirks don't we Robert yeah Rebecca I've just been reading the actual article and um they talk about what do they do they at the end and they also talk about where should the scientific research go and it's quite clear about what they think is in scope and not in scope Etc but the community they're talking about is at certain conferences um so in terms of what everyone's just been saying that they're trying to get their |
| 30:23 | grip on complexity by Framing it through an organization and some conferences and um I wonder about writing to the particular it's cmip is um anyway my point is leverage can be had through going through their organization yeah that's a good point well would will you do that Rebecca do you have time to send them an email and kind of chase them up and get back to these groups I'm willing to take that on as a challenge I'll have to read what Stephen said at the beginning and I'll um read the article I'll see what I can do and I |
| 31:02 | might send it to a few people first fine yeah whatever way works for you yeah yeah thank you very much thank you great anything else on that okay let's move to the next thing then so friends you wanted to talk about um I only wanted to say some words um because we we often spoke about this but I think I could make it much clearer now because John Nissen kindly got back to us didn't he so John because we've been saying just a little bit of context for everybody that the uh you the reduced UV from stress for Garen Soul injection |
| 31:46 | would reduce the oxidative capacity of the at of the troposphere where a lot of useful uh uh chemistry happens including removal of methane uh aging of black carbon aerosol which you know um and so forth um and uh and so we're you've you you're passionately against uh stratospheric aerosol injection injection for that reason you've been quoting the madronich paper which talks about a 20 decrease of UV the uvi in the UV index um and we've given all this to John and John has taken action he's gone to Doug |
| 32:23 | McMartin and told dougma Martin about this so there is this interdisciplinary you know we've been causing it at least in this respect and Doug mcmart Martin has got back and John and John Nissen got back to it got back to us didn't he friends so this is that that's the context you're talking about here yeah I have the feeling they they try to get the greatest reduced for instance uh uh Doug McMahon says only 10 of the UV is reduced but in his paper he says 16 60 16. oh one six okay yeah and in his uh |
| 33:02 | in the modernist paper he is also uh of course author they say more than 20 percent UV reduction they're substantial and uh you if you don't uh we should not only look on the aspect of Isa and the oh radical production by UV which cleans the atmosphere you must also look to demonstratified dimitrisified produces a suffer sulfuric acid radicals yeah not right Cloud conversation nuclei yeah and We Know It produces a class over areas uh in the sea where the referred Plankton exists but if you reduce a UV then also a |
| 34:09 | dimatures are fight will uh the the oxidation yeah it won't get oxidized to me yeah it's also dependent on oh radicals and these uh oxidation mechanisms yeah and uh so we can calculate with lesser cloud above the sea yeah and this will uh read reduce the the Albedo of the of the planet too so we have two effects yeah we production radio by ocean cover with the reduced clouds there's clouds and on the other side uh reducing the cleaning of the atmosphere from |
| 35:15 | greenhouse gases yeah so all these aspects are not uh we know since so many years of a stratospheric aerosol in injection and discuss about but these aspects have never been uh yeah I don't know why hmm yep okay it's interesting uh Alan roebok was mentioned and he has made long lists of reasons why you might not want to use aerosol injection in fact he's made a named himself on that score he's well known for 20 reasons at the last count last time I spoke to him or heard from him it was 26. |
| 36:12 | yeah okay I have I have met him at uh conferences I think he might even recognize me right um and uh he was an author a co-author of the world society report in September 2009 I I think he was on that on the panel uh you know somebody who's against stratospheric aerosol um do you know what his main reasons are the atmospheric chemistry but on volcanic eruptions that's where it comes from okay I'm actually ask him if you give me a list of all his objections to Marine Club writing but he didn't do it I actually asked him |
| 36:54 | several times um I didn't know whether that's the confidence building thing but yeah but anyhow I I have looked at all of the 20 I've gone through all of them and the only one that seemed to uh be uh attention yeah showstopper was the um the question of public description yeah keep going John uh yeah um what was the ozone depletion uh Doug McMahon so he says that there might be a slight uh effect of that um but yeah but less uh it would it would slow down the recovery that's how he put it right yeah |
| 37:46 | because yeah it doesn't increase the the whole right because surfaces his response on Plants is concern is it as if if you've if the result of reducing UV means that methane has a less methane is um being oxidized then that methane is going to produce a global warming effect on the local warming effect in the octet so you have to increase your uh statistic aerosol injection and and so you see you get you get around it that way um if there are any negative effects eye warming effects you have to counter them |
| 38:39 | by extra coding and they think that might be you might have to add five or ten percent more um SO2 to do that if you add more SO2 then you'll also affecting the ozone so it's you're chasing your tail no no you're not you're not but but you yeah um you reduce the cleaning of the atmosphere you reduce this Marine clouds yes you increase the methane and you increase the amount of black carbon so you might have to put a hell of a lot there to counter all those other all those opposite effects uh well one of the things you do if you |
| 39:22 | manage to cool the Arctic is is to uh halt the permafrost four uh which is then the permitos is the thing that's producing the methane no not much so so it's mainly wetlands in the uh in the tropics and rice paddies and fossil fuels but it's the methane in the Arctic which is that's the word concern because of it yeah it's a Tipping Point yes so much yet though yeah yeah it's it's an order of magnitude less than we need to worry about at the moment yeah so my objection to this this conversation is |
| 40:05 | that um what we've got is we've got the the dominance climate action movement who says uh look you guys are just full of evil and uh we're not going to let you do anything uh because of the slippery slope that if once once we let you uh do the smallest feel feel experiment then it'll uh prove to public that mission reduction is a Croc and uh we'll switch to geoengineering as a primary uh climate response and uh that they say that is so dangerous dangerous but no field experiments are allowed so |
| 40:37 | we're we're resorting to this sort of Scholastic Angels on the head of a pin type of debate about what the hypothetical effects of um of various technologies will be uh with uh without recognizing that the enormous complexity of the earth system means that these models could just be quite wrong you know there could be and so the thing is that all of these Technologies can be tested at a very low level so Sai can be uh Marine Cloud brightening that they can be tested uh in the field uh with very low concentration in ways that can |
| 41:18 | then gradually scale up in order to assess safety and um that's to my mind that's the only thing that will make any difference it's that all of this uh talk all of this theoretical debate about Ozark you know who's to know you know what once once we do a test of uh stratospheric aerosol injection in the field then it could be that uh that it will answer this question it could could show France is right it could show France is wrong you know we have to just be agnostic on on those things all of this depends on on |
| 41:55 | that you know how seriously you take the the uh tipping points in the Arctic if you click them really seriously and say look if we don't do this my grandchild is going to live in a much worse well well yeah yeah you don't care about any of that yeah but people like Jim Hansen do yeah and the majority of people attending that uh uh said what their main concern was for their grandchildren yeah it was quite surprising yeah you know what's your emotion emotional response to climate change concern for my grandchildren yeah |
| 42:45 | it's very common yeah um Rebecca please I'm I wanted to mention in what um Robbie just said then I thought that was a very good summary about why we should do small field tests but I just want to repeat that the um moral hazard argument it depends how you frame it like technology is Unstoppable and even though it's not going to either um replace fossil fuel in the short future for CDR is not at scale yet but it is going to happen over the coming decades and I think we should be talking about the time scale of these two things because |
| 43:27 | they are unstoppable and they are happening yeah absolutely yeah well uh solitary engineering is completely stoppable and that's shown by the fact that it's been stopped by the for the last 20 years but what I was talking about was fossil fuels green energy and CDR hmm sorry they are just as stoppable as um uh solar radiation management it's all politics they aren't going to stop they aren't going to stop because they're built into so many experiments happening over at Caltech in places if people want to make |
| 44:05 | money out of them I mean this is what's in day four aces videos every week and The Science Show as well I've been circulating stuff about that and I don't think we should in any way say we should not say or think that decarbonizing in CDR aren't going to happen because they are it's a matter of how quickly will they happen and what effect will they have on the climate which is why we need I agree we need to cool the plant but we we should speak back when people are saying about moral hazard because it |
| 44:37 | isn't about it's a matter of how how quickly the economy picks it up they will happen slowly and they will have small effect on climate and tipping points will have very big effect on climate and uh the the only thing that will affect tipping points is solar radiation management yeah yeah I wouldn't agree with you more I'm just talking about the mole has an argument and how we frame it right to me the moral hazard argument is BS because missions okay there's a few million tons or a few thousand tons being drawn down |
| 45:10 | with this with these expensive CDR schemes but meanwhile China has just uh and about a month or so ago announced 106 gigawatts of new coal-fired power stations Australia something similar Australia believes in blackouts not uh is it um they're flowing up all about Coldplay uh maybe well I saw a uh uh article but anyway uh China's China's doing it what we know is emissions are going up uh they go up every year CO2 emissions go up Australia has recently approved a new Coal Mine sorry not a coal mine okay apologies |
| 45:57 | they're mine the call and send it to China right okay so maybe it's the same 106 gigawatts um but we know that emissions go up all the time as as the developing economies develop they they want to live the same kind of Lifestyles as we do and they go from you know from poor to middle class emissions are going to keep going up because they don't adopt nuclear power is too expensive um there's Advanced nuclear coming but it's going to take at least 10 at least 15 to 20 years because you get any sort |
| 46:31 | of useful scale and there's problems with uh mining materials because it's very resource intensive this this uh an energy transition as I've pointed out several times there's an excellent material from a guy called Mark Mills who has spent his whole career in the mining industry saying there's nothing like enough uh mining capacity and and what about the processing which is energy intensive to get the metals out out of this stuff so I I just have absolutely no confidence so in this energy transition |
| 47:05 | so-called energy transition is still sort of 20 and Emissions keep going up so Rob totally agree you have to have if there isn't good if if this moral has this fake um if that's the right word yeah misguided moral hazard argument continues to say oh no no no no God you can't do solar um radiation manner I think we should be called reverse geoengineering because the geoengineering is is already warming the planet we want to reverse that um the moral hazard argument is rubbish I thought long enough and now we have |
| 47:42 | Robert I was hoping that Bruce Parker there have been some exchanges he's uh taken up something almost a throwaway thing I suggested somebody should uh do a paper or uh show us how emissions are projected to increase sorry I I circulated an email about that which I was going to follow up with Bruce Parker but uh yeah he said he was going to be here today but I don't see him here right um yeah uh but we've got uh Robert yeah please Robert hello hi um well yeah I'm not muted yes I just came into this late I'm sorry I wasn't |
| 48:21 | able to join you earlier but uh I'm just picking up on this moral hazard thing uh which is something that uh it's pretty close to my heart the the way to frame this speaking up on Rebecca's point is that uh Morrow has a whole concept of moral hazard revolves around Choice a choice being made you choose to do this rather than that because you believe that doing this is preferable to that now without getting into the merits of the choice moral hazard simply does not apply where you have no choice so if we were able to convince people |
| 49:00 | that cooling was not a choice but it was actually essential it was necessary then the whole moral has an argument just simply collapses because if it's necessary moral hazard doesn't arise because you don't have a choice um indoors interesting logic I think there's a potential challenge that we have multiple ways of cooling and maybe it's a choice among cooling methods that might represent because they'll be side effects with each one that is a that's a nice detail Brian but but that is not |
| 49:38 | the argument that is normally raised here people simply argue that you shouldn't do any kind of SRM any kind of cooling because uh you're undermining uh the uh the the emissions abatement proposition uh and that you you need to keep the fossil fuel companies feet to the fire and by allowing cooling you are taking the heat away from them uh uh you know if you want to start having an argument about well should be should it be this kind of calling or that kind of calling that's a different argument |
| 50:07 | because you only have that argument once you've accepted the principle there should be some calling so that's the thing about holding their feet to the firework where they're cutting off their nose despite this but it's the humanities as a whole is cutting off its nose to spice its face by saying hold their feet to the fire because it will end in disaster holding their feet to the fire isn't going to work it can't this is what you're saying Robert it can't work there is no choice |
| 50:38 | yeah that's that's the that that's yeah the message that um we should be perhaps yeah we should be saying that every single time wonderful luxury to have what Brian just said to be actually arguing over what's the best sort of cooling sorry Robert yeah except there's someone famously said there is no alternative and and once you start getting into that sort of language then the politics becomes quite difficult when you say there's an alternative that was Margaret Thatcher's famous |
| 51:07 | phrase but if you if you then uh so so that's that's part of the problem that's you know people people feel that the most important thing is to be part of the climate action movement and and they feel that they will be excommunicated if once they uh reject the moral hazard reasoning so there's there's a lot of sort of religious psychology that's that's at Play okay yeah we've seen your uh emails on that um Robert which thank you uh John listen you have your hand up and then I think we should move on uh yeah I did I |
| 51:44 | did write a little letter to the agu suggesting that there paper on the the moral hazards the um uh they that they didn't use the word moral but um it was the ethical basis right uh uh was actually art in ethical but I don't know who who to send that to a a journalist might like to get hot girls because I think the title is quite good I think a lot of people are simply unaware apart from mirrors in space you know they're not really aware maybe they might have just about be hearing about Marine well I suppose they and they hear |
| 52:40 | about stratospheric aerosol then they hear a lot of controversy um and nobody even you John I noticed you're talking about stratospheric aerosol injection Marine Cloud brightening no mention of our wonderful TOA proposal which uses industry processes to make nanoparticles uh you know aerosol particles which sediment to Clay when they when they into the water think it we think it would work I think it would work great cheap there you go I think we haven't promoted our TOA enough have we friends but but we but we do have people interested in |
| 53:17 | it um with at least sort of two people interested and we'll keep keeping keeping going anyway there's also there's also uh C Hayes um from Clarks see to miser C haze there we go C Haze which is uh based on Isa yeah okay it's more sea salt areas and then there's Isa above that relaxation okay yeah yes anyway so I don't want to hijack what's that France I said a tour is right uh it's yellow and so toy you can use in the Arctic yeah yeah so okay maybe we should put that on the agenda for next time but let's stick to |
| 54:06 | the agenda um well I wanted to mention uh cooking stoves uh we have Paul Anderson here who's spent uh many well that's what sound like decades promoting cooking stoves the black carbon aerosol uh is the only aerosol that migrates all the way up to strategy because it Heats in the in the air I think I'll stay on the on this here um because we'll quickly say unless anybody wants to respond uh it it rises all the way up to the stratosphere because it heats up in the air in the Sun and then we know that |
| 54:41 | Brewer Dobson might moves stratific air to the poles where it then comes down uh in the polar Winters in snow so getting better cooking using cooking stoves in these hot countries would be a good idea um for that reason so there'd be less should be we've got paper we're working on I've just been working on it just today as well um uh preventing this black carbon aerosol going up and going around and making a pool of smog in the in the early spring and the summer as well uh which has a warming effect no wonder the Arctic is |
| 55:23 | warming so fast um okay so cooking stones are a very good idea from that for that reason not just the CO2 reason but also for this the soot reason especially in hot countries where near the equator it goes up the stratosphere okay John do you want to say something about yeah just to say that we're just here from Paul Anderson yeah okay yeah good idea is Paul there yeah I'm here yeah the uh it's hard to find anything wrong with promoting the gasifier cook stoves that make biochar and from the health perspective I I've |
| 56:08 | had one thing I wrote down I think 11 of the 17 sustainable development goals have have direct or maybe slightly indirect benefits coming from improved cook stove and they're not very expensive and they're able to be paid for and if so many things on but we can't get very many of them out there and there the the other stoves which are not as good are more entrenched than the people are using it the uh the I mean I'm I'm on on the gasifier cook stoves specifically I mean the other cook stoves they try to cut down |
| 56:47 | on the on the black carbon from them yes but there's the other advantages of of a true carbon dioxide removal process with the biochar and this my writings on that are are fairly expensive expensive and uh extensive and um uh it would be like a no-brainer for for someone who has some resources to do something that would help it the number of the households using it are approximately uh 500 million that's to serve about almost 3 billion people on on Earth if it's six people to the to the stove roughly and uh it's it's |
| 57:32 | doable you set up the manufacturing so I'm dump on not dump on I'm just absolutely frustrated about it the the black carbon argument is is is additional but I don't even think it's in the top five of the reasons why we would want to do it but I'm glad to have it on the on on the radar for for this group a great I mean I think it's quite a recent realization um I mean this is a paper that Franz has produced which I'm you know uh making because I'm a native English speaker I want to make it uh you know easier to |
| 58:13 | read and plus a little peer review so it's a new a new thing that but that uh black carbon goes all the way up to the stratosphere it goes around to the poles and then it comes down in the snow we we know this we've seen horrific you know pictures of black covered literally ice is covered in a black covering um so yeah I mean please put it on let's make a correction about that okay yeah it is not like there is so much of it coming down in one cycle it is the fact that now since we have a virtually total |
| 58:45 | melting away of new snow that the black carbon there which doesn't melt and it's uh it's thickened up and heavy enough that it just doesn't get washed away with it it accumulates like if we just have a layer of snow over the top of it it doesn't matter that there's a layer of black carbon that's two inches or three feet down into the snow and ice but but when they keep melting it it just keeps accumulating and that's why they're getting so dark but that doesn't happen a short period of time okay if I |
| 59:18 | make that impression I'm uh didn't mean to yeah uh I'd say it the same way as you that it builds up over time because it melts each year yes um okay anything else on that subject will we move on yeah I would just like to uh support uh Paul Italy um and I would probably want to embrace his technology as part of the planetary planetary restoration plant um biochar is a very good means of removing uh CO2 from the atmosphere by putting into the soil and if we can get three billion uh people on the job |
| 1:00:07 | it could make a it could be the biggest source of CDL means of CTO and it would help to feed the growing population as well and it and it's huge effect on the health because lots of these people at the moment have open fires and the it reduces the lifespan of Nepalese women for example oh yeah I've been in a hut when they were cooking and the smoke is bearing out all the time uh terrible for health okay not good okay you're next John you're on you're next you have a client you have an article that you mentioned can you put |
| 1:00:58 | that into the chat specifically which one you were talking uh we're working on one on a paper but there's lots of there's there's tons of references there's pages and pages of references so um I mean I can send you I don't know if you I'm not sure you really want to get an early draft because it's I'm still working but I can I'll send it to you when we've got a a decent sort of draft if you like I'm happy to look at whenever you've got it I prefer to see something while I have a chance to make |
| 1:01:28 | an imp uh yeah okay let's make a note Paul Anderson sup paper yeah yeah I'd like to see a early copy too if that's possible Clive yeah we prepared to share it with the group um well I need to if friends are you okay with that okay yeah yeah um yeah okay [Music] whoever asks for it and wants to give feedback that said we have our own sort of uh unofficial peer review process yeah okay thank you thanks everyone for that uh John you're next as well on the you want to briefly talk about so we've |
| 1:02:10 | got half an hour 30 minutes 30 minutes um so well f4cr Saturday it seems to me that um petrolkowski is using this forum to promote the idea that climate restoration is possible purely by the combination of emissions reduction and um CDR and perhaps a bit of methane removal as well but and what did Jim Hansen have to say he said he was there as well um we were well feedback uh was kind of limited to answering a particular question which is uh what are your emotions oh right um I said my emotions were uh anger but people were doing the obvious thing |
| 1:03:06 | of cooling the planet I thought I didn't get my point Crossing in the public United would have been yeah uh not not appreciated in that form right but I think he's building a huge trying to build a huge Community for the idea of climate restoration his I mean we've known for a long time and we've I've been pretty straight with them uh I think that's a great thing for him to be doing it's a Pity he disagrees with so many of us about the science and uh um some of us it's laughably so |
| 1:03:43 | um but I can't take away that his uh leadership in saying the climate will be restored it's very difficult to say that and if there isn't a sort of strong conversation for that um Robert please uh I'm just gonna go from the top of the list sorry I think who's at the top of the list here yeah sorry Robert yeah sorry yeah look uh I think that the foundation for climate restoration is completely wrong completely a waste of time and uh completely upload package to action to restore the climate because by |
| 1:04:20 | excluding Albedo from consideration they are confusing the public they're confusing the discussion Peter fikowski's sole argument is totally corrupt what he says is oh it's too unpopular he says it's unpopular now so I'll be unpopular if I talk about it so I don't want all of my friends to shun me because I'm on because I'm talking about something unpopular even though it's necessary he's recognized in conversation with our groups that it's necessary but he says when he then goes |
| 1:04:52 | to these sort of forums oh it's not necessary because everybody everybody won't like me if I talk about it like you know what what crap he changes his tune does he absolutely he does it's I I just think it's disgusting uh you know so and you know there's very little opportunity to to call him out on that but uh you know it's uh yeah anyway so uh okay thank you for that waste my time with the foundation for climate restoration sadly okay all right thank you for that um uh this idea of people being muted uh |
| 1:05:27 | everyone's welcome to to speak it's just that if you've got got noise going on it's uh we well don't want to hear that noise obviously um okay any other comments on f4cr because if not we'll move on to the next the next thing yeah let's talk about chat GPT then unfortunately I think Robert Chris has just had to leave uh which is a shame I just saw something but uh anything to say about that sir well um just that it's a it was a great exercise which Robert Chris did having chat GP answer his various |
| 1:06:06 | questions and it was interesting how chat chippy changed its opinion with the question which is a bit strange but what what it does I think is to give a a very good summary of what the ipcc reading community uh believes is the case and in particular which shows what is wrong about their belief and therefore I felt it was a very useful thing to find out say what are the things which we have to push to change that wrong belief and uh in my I I I I sent you a um some comments on that chat chip gbt I don't know whether any of you have read it but |
| 1:06:57 | I I was uh pointing out where it was wrong and I think uh I'm not quite sure where to take this from from here on but it was a it was a a really good way of finding out how the what the general public and the general scientific public think about it which is wrong yeah yeah uh I thought so too yeah thanks severeign [Music] from this group and uh you know if we decide to have public engagement that would be a vehicle for doing that how could you we used chat GPT to do Outreach Robert uh Brian rather well it's possible to frame uh the you |
| 1:07:47 | know outgoing messages to be tailored to particular audiences um and so you know if we have particular messages to go out or a strategy maybe a Communications strategy could be formulated uh with some input from chat jpt and ultimately uh design a campaign for building uh Groundswell of support for cooling the planet okay so you're saying we do our own outreach program and use chat B chat GPT to help help us uh write the text please can certainly yeah it can certainly improve the professionalism of a campaign okay |
| 1:08:27 | social networks John can go first all right yeah I just wanted to say that the big weakness of GPT uh chats GPT at the moment is that he can't analyze the figures so it can't tell you that you know that the Arctic is freezing very uh is throwing very rapidly and that kind of thing and how much posting is required and all those engineering figures that one actually needs in order to make a sensible decision it is actually possible to turn down the temperature to zero and using the API interface I get much more reasonable |
| 1:09:18 | answers out of it in fact I was able to using Chain of Thought reasoning uh and encourage one of these um machine learning large language models to actually conserve not only energy but also angular momentum so it did say take some coaching but it's not a hopeless case and will improve dramatically in the months ahead do you think it's got a good model of the Earth system in order to determine uh the relative merits of different methods I think many of these systems do have a large survey of the peer-reviewed |
| 1:09:58 | literature on both climate effects on the Earth system and probably the Gaia theory that in fact life affects uh climate substantially so I think it could actually articulate some of those I would encourage I just learned about uh Sir James lovelock's most recent book and that is his final Gaia book I believe was published in 2020 and I've yet to read that but it's quite possible that in some of these AIS as well all right look uh GPT is a very powerful technology and uh it's uh it's one that's |
| 1:10:41 | very useful just for the review of of arguments and it will it will present the peer review consensus uh in uh in very uh cogent text and uh but in terms of challenges to the to the peer review consensus um it's uh it's quite limited and so it won't validate opinions that that have not been accepted by the uh the ipcc basically um so um yeah so to test that hypothesis a little bit Robert because what I do find is if you use a Perry Mason form of inquiry um I find it's possible to uh what's a |
| 1:11:28 | Perry Mason form of inquiry well apologies that's a old us TV show on on the legal proceeding just sort of dramatic Court scenes okay but um no I would uh yeah don't you remember Perry Mason type surely you Nick Perry Mason uh probably should I wasn't sure if it was Perry Como sorry keep going Brian yeah I'm I'm sure I'm dating myself but in any case um I will say that with a um a particular line of reasoning uh we'll call it Chain of Thought reasoning you can oftentimes Corner the AI into uh you |
| 1:12:04 | know understanding your perspective and and it's all about prompt engineering which I've been working on quite extensively in the past weeks so there is great hope for this and I would and throw the baby out with the bath water quite yet okay thank you Brian uh Rebecca and I think as well we all know that you have to add to or review AI with your brain or your collect your brain like this group so if you get a summary of what it thinks we can then critique it and add to it and tweak it but I think that's sort of what Robbie |
| 1:12:36 | was saying yeah if it can be added to great but uh yeah we have to add our own texts to it we can't change their language model because they're that's um scrubbing what is it it's sort of trolley it's TR trolling um huge amounts of papers and stuff isn't it it's very difficult showed that you could actually um help it self-correct itself yeah but but it's not we would say in the beginning there needs to be better climate models there needs to be models that take into account not just |
| 1:13:11 | atmospheric physics but atmospheric chemistry as well yeah but you can still do quite a bit with it okay you can do it but it seems to be it's a large language model it's it's to me it it resembles a stuffed shirt type person who who's very good at saying the right thing in the right place basically and sounding good but actually knows very little mind the the Palm to uh out by Google has a lot more technical literature in it and so you just have to choose your model that's been oriented |
| 1:13:41 | towards a particular outcome for example Med Palm 2 has scored very well on the examinations the medical examinations for proper diagnosis and is now rivaling other expertise areas so it's quite possible that by fine-tuning uh the models with the appropriate body of atmospheric chemistry literature uh they could actually do quite well so I I wouldn't uh put it Beyond them in fact maybe we should do a little r d project on that well in fact what Brian just said then sorry the medical particular I'm just |
| 1:14:19 | repeating what he said that check GPT answered the emails that came into doctor surgeries about iPod or neck what do I do kind of thing and made very nice friendly emails saying Clive you should put the hot water pack in if it's still small go to the hospital or something but what they were saying was what I've just said the chat GPT should not send the email to the patient there should be a queue of emails for the doctor to review before sending but it was a ex a very expert thing and the doctor didn't |
| 1:14:52 | have to change much and I will just add that anthropic has added a context of a hundred thousand code tokens which means uh I believe that would correspond to around 80 000 Words which at 500 Words a page is around 160 Pages um so we can now load it up you know a query with 150 Pages worth of papers and ask for a 10-page response uh so I think there's plenty of r d to be done there and the future is bright so I wouldn't discount it yet I'm not betting on it but anyway let's move on to Doug please |
| 1:15:34 | I I did an extensive experiment and I the the bottom line the final statement that AI gave me is in the chat basically it says I've learned all this data that's out there and I'm just going to regurgitate it back to you in a very authoritative manner so you think it's real I mean that's my interpretation basically it's saying it's just it's just like somebody said earlier it's what the ipcc or what the world believes that's out there on the net that this particular model or |
| 1:16:07 | chat has been trained on until the next version comes out and learns what was happening there you know last week it doesn't know what happens last week because it's it was trained several months ago so anyway the bottom line is it takes a human brain to discern what you're reading and see if it's true explain that to me and these words that are in the chat I'm not going to read them to you so yeah now that's a pretty standard form of boilerplate that has been trained in by the companies to try |
| 1:16:38 | to improve AI safety by having caveats and whatnot you know that's the their book ends you know at the beginning and ending about you know caveats and then you get the content in the middle and we just kind of uh you know remove the bookends and um and discard the wrapping and uh if there are useful insights in the middle we can use those but I agree with Rebecca we need to have the the human review as we go we've had a couple of controversies in Australia just the the Murdoch press complained that uh chat GPT was |
| 1:17:08 | promoting a yes vote in the Indigenous voice referendum and um so when they complained uh chat GPT suddenly changed its answers and said sorry I can't comment on that and so so when you've got points of political controversy and yeah they were basically saying that the the leader of the labor party a prime minister Albanese was a really great guy and the leader of the opposition was pretty controversial um so uh so you uh uh but that's that was the Google bard one and uh like we're often seeing these stories about |
| 1:17:40 | tricking um these AI Technologies into saying things that are controversial and um so yeah anyway it's it's a it's a fascinating space and it's only going to expand but I think that the really big thing for artificial intelligence I see uh Stevens leftist is using it to to determine the location of marine Cloud brightening vessels um that's that's what uh and uh similar I think that that's just got uh immense uh implications like the uh it's if we wish to use Marine Cloud brightening to |
| 1:18:18 | improve rainfall patterns than um uh AI provides the uh potential to do that yeah that's machine learning that's not a large language model that's not chat GPT that's a different kind of machine that's more broadly on artificial intelligence yeah yeah fair enough yeah yeah but both of those are actually machine learning models so whether it's language that they rely on rely on Big Data so you have to have a thousands of instances of injection of of Cloud brightening and what the effect is |
| 1:18:55 | yeah and then you feedback possible you could look for a certain historic conditions we have plenty of data on the global climate of the earth uh going back decades and we could search for the times and places where there are favorable conditions for marine Cloud brightening as a Baseline and do a bit of simulation beyond that and once people in the USA see that you can save 100 billion dollars from uh hurricanes by uh improving by by reducing their intensity with Marine Cloud broadening the money ought to be there for these AI |
| 1:19:29 | programs I hope so wouldn't you yep okay anything else before we've got 12 minutes um Rebecca you said the uh um the une the unep report this is kind of same kind of thing isn't it but um that's your suggestion the only reason I put it there is because I think Seb mentioned it and yeah um you and he both said is this misguided kind of thing which I agree probably with where it's landed in terms of the public message that anyone would have picked up just for everyone's info it's a report called one atmosphere and |
| 1:20:14 | um what they did was review they did a desk crop review of all the different a few different um SRM Technologies and if you read the preface it says um things like it needs more testing and can't be recommended at the moment and there are big risks that's the kind of message but what I wanted to say was the back story is more interesting I listened to a podcast with um yeah that's the one yeah no quick fixes and if you go down to the end of that page it says it's very risky and you can't do it at the moment kind of thing |
| 1:20:54 | um and it's the same Moral Moral has an argument one or the other if we do this then we're not going to do that kind of thing yeah but what I actually think is that the man Dave and Faye he was only one of the authors I don't know who was the relative brain power on it but it was an international panel but he's absolutely impressive he runs the chemical Sciences laboratory I think it is at NOAA and um he was in that climate conversations podcast where they seem to at the end of every podcast do a segment |
| 1:21:29 | on geoengineering with every different person they're interviewing and he said David Faye I mean that we need standard scenarios where we are comparing Geo engineering and he wants to be involved in that so um he's saying the people are saying you you can do it all over the world or you can do it in the Arctic you can do it in the all year round you can use salsa you can use this you can use that it's very hard to have a conversation I'm just paraphrasing what he said pardon me but anyway he's highly engaged and |
| 1:22:08 | um what he also said was this is very significant because it's the first un report or intergovernmental report that has actually tried to look at all the Technologies um in a substantive way not just one chapter in a un ipcc report and if you look at their recommendations they are actually very vague non-specific or high level but he is engaged in kind of politics and governance and it's David Faye I mean he's providing doorways into what actually could be done so I'm very impressed by him and I think the report |
| 1:22:45 | is kind of what we expect but it's more if you actually read it it's there's a lot of good stuff in there okay thank you the thing is that summary is in fact not a good summary of the text of the the science inside the document inside it needs to be tested in that and here's she saying no we don't want to test it exactly so he's probably line plus their word tensions in the among the committee which is they talk about that but the other thing I want to mention not directly on unep but there's |
| 1:23:28 | someone called philma cook who is on from Brazil who was um she was on a Carnegie climate Institute webinar the other day and she is as well highly advocating doing research on SRM and um and she said I'm not speaking on behalf of the UN but like there's a lot more gray areas in there is what I'm saying a lot more um thought and brain power going on behind the scenes oh who is this lady again oh you've gone mute sir Rebecca she's from Brazil then she was in one of the I know everyone sends lots of emails but I sent |
| 1:24:12 | around a summary of that webinar and with a photograph of her and if anyone wants to see it I know we've walked up too many too much stuff to look at but my conclusion from that was that there's a lot more um people are aware of things behind the scenes and they are saying let's get on with testing the unep talks about how this is a review of the state of the art of research in SRM when there's been next to no funding for SRM research at all so how can you I mean it's obvious that there's hardly any progress on it |
| 1:24:50 | because uh you know there's been no funding for it so maybe this is a a chance to raise the call for funding for the research yeah absolutely it seems a bit odd yep yep well the forward for that uh unep report um says that SRM will not improve the environment and uh our best bet for a prosperous and Equitable future remains uh cutting greenhouse gas emissions but it's it's really uh quite a nonsensical statement like it's a it's a purely political statement which reflects the uh the ipcc um |
| 1:25:34 | [Music] correct tensions without any reflection on on any uh scientific information so it like the extent to which the UN system has departed from uh from its uh scientific principles is uh I think a key takeout from from that report from une yeah it is I think they're learning how to speak about this in an integrated way as as has been led by Cambridge with its uh reduce remove and repair Mantra and I think we just the uh the the UN is a bit behind when it comes to actually coming up with an integrated framework that |
| 1:26:16 | actually talks about the machine reduction first they're totally opposed to an integrated framework because they're they're in interested more in just managing their political pressures that I'm about halfway through that uh presentation that Rebecca mentioned with Thelma Krug in it and very interesting useful good information that I want to call attention to the to the podcast it was about the work done at the Great Barrier Reef and I put out an email that gave the link to that if you haven't heard that one I really |
| 1:26:56 | highly recommend it to you it is in 2020 just as covert was getting started there was a study of machine of marine Cloud brightening up on the Barrier Reef and their thing is not just about reflecting back to the to the atmosphere but it is giving a shadow Over The Reef okay so there's a second a reason for this and I was absolutely impressed with the the efforts that are going on there by Australia the Australian government has now funded some things but this podcast is a wealth of information it's 50 |
| 1:27:35 | minutes long and it's one of those things that you stay there attended to it all the time the guy was absolutely super so I'm just curious how many people in this particular group have seen that uh or listen to that podcast or just wave your hand out there if you've seen it one I've not seen it Paul how do we find it online what do we look for um today that went to this group and uh email today from you thank you yeah from me and so it's there's a link on to it but I'm I'm just absolutely impressive |
| 1:28:13 | and then we got to do more and it shows the length of time it takes to get things through the process to to accomplish some stuff like that and this is a place to get started with Marine plan with Marine with the Great Barrier Reef see I think we lost you just for a second there Paul it's a great place to get started you've gone uh muted actually oh oh no oh no no it's not it's not me it's just I think it's saying you've got a bad connection just just keep going maybe talk a little bit slowly yeah it's |
| 1:28:48 | uh the Great Barrier Reef has these other reasons for doing it and they they're allowing it they were pointing out they had no objections from anybody in the government and stuff about putting these aerosols into the and the sprays and what they're doing and they're talking about the condensation nuclei and is it absolutely a wonderful presentation that is from my opinion and a great uh support for the week for the work that uh Stephen Salter is doing yeah yeah it's a good place to start I would say we've had a lot of technical |
| 1:29:23 | discussions about Cloud condensation nuclei in this group pool so the fact that I mean I I didn't listen to it um uh we've talked we've talked about it we've been talking about it for over a year here um if you have it available would you do you mind putting it in the chat here because then that'll go on onto the video and so it's another place that people will see it I will look for it as if I find it before we end up I I'll okay because a lot of people won't have been party to these discussions |
| 1:29:54 | um okay a couple how long have we got left can we've got a couple of minutes um and okay yeah that's just about enough time to talk about public availability of meetings so if you thought that was I think that's uh that's been going around as well hasn't it we can talk about it I think you said you you're right that uh We've we've decided to only go only send the stuff to to trusted friends and I'm I'm delighted with that decision I I'm worried about the other two groups |
| 1:30:28 | getting trolled all their members getting trolled by going too wide I mean I I can see both sides of the argument that a lot of people just unaware of these conversations so maybe one of the groups if one of the groups was brave enough to and I think yours is that isn't uh aren't you saying that Robert that uh you are you are actually willing to be uh in order to make the have a big exposure make a big difference um you're willing to take the rough with the smooth is that right as chairman I have said no uh not oh |
| 1:31:04 | that's you you're the chairman sorry okay yeah I am a chairman yeah sorry Rob you might well the the current status is that uh just as the uh the geoengineering Google group and the carbon dioxide removal Google group uh uh that all conversations can be uh viewed by anyone uh that's uh that's the same settings that the planetary restoration Google group has now I'm not sure what the um the noac um Google group um set but no it doesn't function as a Google group does it uh yes it does you |
| 1:31:41 | can send it sorry yeah but yeah I thought that's not the point it's it's I'm agreeing with Sev uh you you really want to send things to to trusted friends we don't know that these people were sending to in Canada or trustworthy friends yet yeah we need letter Spencer she's she's absolutely fine but it's it's she makes it a publicly available then that's then available anyone can see it so she she has a wide reach basically yeah I mean basically on behalf of Prague I wanted |
| 1:32:17 | to kind of preserve our particular quality which I think is scientific integrity uh just uh which I think is very important and we do have conversations which throw doubts on that or suggest that we uh you know um arguments uh which would not look good in public and you could lead to a decline in our reputation that's really what worries me like you used to angle your stuff the chat in the chat and the uh the link to it is down at the bottom I don't know if it's an active link or not you just have to copy that uh I'm not seeing that |
| 1:33:10 | uh oh no Grant um I'm not seeing an email from you um uh Paul there we go there we go one new message here we go one new message ah got it yes okay all right thank you very much so that'll that'll just I'll just that gets copied yeah so thank you for that so are we talking about videos or emails uh John here and and Robert and Sev we were requested to have our some of our discussions posted on on the website and David Spratt um who's one of our most distinguished uh members who has never posted apart |
| 1:33:54 | from a request to censor our site um has said that he he didn't want his um uh in his emails as his emails right yeah he's never sent a single one the only email that he's ever sent to Prague is a request to um uh to uh make Prague into a secret group and conceal it from uh from public view which I think yeah I'd like I honestly okay I I didn't know that Robert but anyhow I just think we need to go slowly at first and see uh see how how it goes with our I mean we do have official output uh which has been agreed in the group |
| 1:34:40 | so we can we can send that and promote that I think that's excellent idea well this is a conversation for Prague rather than no I can't yeah exactly but I'm just Glide was asking so I was just yeah it's uh how we treat it yeah yeah okay and last um comment Rebecca please and then we'll call it a day I'll save it for another time okay then all right yeah okay all right thank you very much everyone once again I'll put the recording up as usual and look forward to seeing you all again in |
| 1:35:16 | a couple of weeks have a great day and thanks for thanks for all your hi everybody yeah bye bye |