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| 00:00 | or and keep going and uh working with um Brian Von hon and alen gadian and others to uh to raise funds so uh the uh the issues that were that were uh immediately interested to do are to work out how to raise funds to uh to employ a a graduate engineer and how to recruit a graduate engineer so I just wanted to make those as uh as announcements uh to this group and uh Rebecca who's is with us is also um part part of our uh our group with uh John and and Ron and and others so so that works moving forward um Steven has been |
| 00:49 | unwell uh so um our thoughts with with him I haven't heard directly from him um only through uh through Allan gan um so uh I'll I'll just check if there's if if anybody wants to respond on Marine Cloud brightening you're welcome can I can I just say Robert I mentioned uh is this the prag group that's doing this um fundraising no no it's it's a group that's been developed just at Stevens's impetus to to support his work and um so um yeah we I'll put the link to uh uh the new |
| 01:30 | website Daniel keev has kindly stepped in as our Web Master and has developed the website yeah I saw that what it looks nice what's that called ron. org I'll link yeah so I just I mentioned this to Dean bori from uh the blue cooling initiative where they you know they've got Hans vandeloo and all those people and said that this money was being raised for marine Cloud brightening and she said um why have another group doing that why not join forces because that's they're doing exactly the same |
| 02:07 | thing well we we' Steven had considerable discussion with Cambridge and the the center for climate repair and um the U the issue is that the um the concern is uh big enough that it's important that a number of groups um continue to to work on Marine Cloud brightening and Steven has specific expertise and and capacity at which we would like to support to um yeah that's fine Robert and I replied to her and I said look you know no no I'm not going to curb their enthusiasm you know um so she's I think it's just look look at |
| 02:49 | from the point of view she's offering you know collaboration if you want to well and we've offered that as well so we discussed with h vandeloo and with VAV vanan um how we can possibly collaborate and U so um Hans and and V have have met with us to discuss it um Hans was uh he was going to be the keynote speaker at the European climate conference in Bucharest in in Romania I'm not I haven't heard uh like we discussed that a while back and we haven't heard heard back on how that's all going |
| 03:30 | yeah yeah right okay anyway thank you for that feedback the thing is this is not a Lobby group this is a actually do some tests in the lab in the wind tunnel and um support Alan Gan with his modeling um he needs funding for that and even though he's doing it off the spill of the ear rang but this is actually hard for R&D and it needs to be part of the bid networking and engagement um anyway um I don't know whether anyone hello Jonathan by the way thanks for your financial contribution Jonathan um I I'm thinking know the cost of the |
| 04:14 | engineer is something like 70,000 Great British pounds with P costs and um if there's any way that people want to chip in you know um if this was a school fundraiser you'd be selling chocolates and um each chocolate cost $2 kind of thing but um if everybody put a small amount in we'd probably have the first Year's funding and um the other thing is that the um ARA research and Innovation Awards in the UK the main person there on climate change this is sort of leading into the next topic of the |
| 04:50 | framing of the scientific debate but that person Mark SS has got a statement on his what questions he's looking at pagee and he says um in our language he's it's just like two sentences but it summarizes everything that we're doing that Net Zero is not going to be enough we need climate interventions and we should be testing but Steven said that he thinks funding from that Source isn't going to flow until late 2024 so what we're trying to do is get this up and running as a small lab and science focused effort |
| 05:28 | that um is already in progress can can attract proper funding from institutional sources or wealthy wealthy donors okay thank you uh Rebecca and of course Steven's climate engineering laboratory in Edinburgh is open and has a number of tenants and uh we're planning the key task for the uh engineer working with Steven is to build the wind tunnel as Rebecca mentioned in order to uh to test uh submicron monitor disperse um uh wife for nozzles to deploy Marine Cloud bring yeah great thank you Robert uh Jonathan yes thanks uh Rebecca um it was |
| 06:13 | very smooth and easy to donate uh I made my second donation uh there seems to be this thing called 1957 and but the other layer is called donate box or something like that do you know what the 19 57 is that seems to be the thing that I'm donating to in a way is that just an internal number of your organization within donate box or something to be honest we tested that and we couldn't see it so if it's not too late if you could do a screen snip and send it through Jonathan okay it's Brian B is very kindly hping this |
| 06:51 | through the climate foundation and um I know this is not going to be saying they're not sure but I think possibly us and Australian donors may be able to get TX deductibility but you know like we need to find that out property and I'm not sure about UK but um I've been thinking no U anyway you don't need to hear my fundraising pitch I'm going to put my hand in my own pocket for an amount and um I might beer in retirement but at least you know if we don't do these sorts of things we're |
| 07:23 | not going to have a climate to retire into exactly yeah yeah okay uh John please as as Robert mentioned the key objective is to is to get a graduate engineering student on board we can talk about this amongst our group Robert but uh I actually met with a director of warley a big engineering company here in Australia got 50,000 Engineers public listed company and I put the idea to him that perhaps could we second a young engineer from their their company um so he's he's gone away to think about that I mean that |
| 08:03 | that would that would be a great way to get get a young guy on board if we could do that right let's talk to all of the big engineering firms okay look let's let's move on from thanks thanks very much for uh for letting us uh have that conversation and um on tipping points uh Johan rockstrom um uh gave a um a lecture um last month which um several people have commented on um Robert Chris uh noted that he uh hadn't um discussed um uh albo and um uh I so that prompted me to uh to watch it I my my tendency to watch these is to |
| 08:58 | turn the transcript on and put it at Double speed and U so I find that's a much more efficient way to uh to watch watch these things and uh I wasn't surprised but uh was dismayed at the uh the political line there and so I I circulated my my views on that and uh the way I frame it is in terms of morality because like I've I've had a response from uh from somebody saying uh well there's no point trying to uh brighten the planet until we've got an international agreement to cut emissions |
| 09:34 | and uh you know good luck with that you know we've we've got the Paris agreement which is a complete fast and uh the uh uh you know the the the the planet is uh heading straight over the waterfall uh so uh um rockstrom seems you know quite Ticky boo with all of that to be sorry to be rude but um it's uh uh like I see it as a moral crisis and I so I I do think it's important to to say you know that that that sort of attitude is uh abetting uh considerable suffering and collapse and so you know unless we |
| 10:15 | brighten the planet then we're on an inevitable path to Global collapse and uh that's a sort of basic moral message that uh that has to be um uh conveyed in into the public realm which is there's a an a essentially a ban on uh on that observation in in the public sphere I've not seen that argument presented in any mass media um circles Robert did you see my my reply to you today uh yes your just there was one was another one c i I only sent a a brief sort of few lines yeah this is this is the great thing that from the press |
| 10:57 | conference from you know and obviously global warming in the pipeline but that but the fact that it was uh and it was hosted by Jeffrey Sachs who's known among you know the economists community and sort of geopolitical as well um and Jim Hansen made it very clear you know 1. |
| 11:18 | 5 is dead as a door nail two degrees is on its deathbed unless there's some cooling that's what he said and so if people are not going to listen to him they're not going to listen to us so this is what I'm doing all the time now I'm saying look the top climate scientist is saying cooling is needed uh and so what are you all doing talking about just Net Zero only what you know the rest of the world and all all the big sort of climate bonds and everybody else all the politicians that they're behind the curve they they need to wise up you know recognize that the |
| 11:54 | top the world's top or if you don't think he's a top climate scientist he's the one that's that has said look leave your models aside look at the way the Earth has responded historically uh this the according to the historical climate record this is how it responds and if you do this to it what we' what we're doing you know the greenhouse gases the current level we're going to be in for 10 degrees Centigrade um within you know 2400 and and I asked I wasn't too sure about 3 degrees or |
| 12:24 | four degrees but Robert Chris kindly replied and said no know probably at least degrees by the end of this Century so and that's if the current levels stay the same uh which of course they're not going to I sent a link out today from I power magazine saying that China is building even more cold fire power stations added what was it 23 gaw this uh this year so far so it's there's no all this Net Zero it can't possibly keep up with the the increase and it's not just China of course we we we have to |
| 13:01 | blame them but but it's all the developing countries around the world that they're using the same thing India Indonesia Philippines you know even some European countries so and Australia and Australia well just mentioning the Hansen paper he specifically endorses our project with Steven Suter as the most innocuous solution to um begin um uh uh cooling the planet and so I I think having that sort of heavyweight endorsement from James Hansen is very good for our um ability to engage with Engineers engage |
| 13:39 | with with others to to get money to uh to actually do something yeah absolutely I totally agree yeah if I could just note C before I jump in the shower uh the the second point we have two proposals in the letter the second one is actually to use you know or or version of marine Cloud brightening and a version Andor the climate Catalyst method that Clive and France are working on uh you know to offset the warming that's resulted from the loss of sulfur aerosol so I just just make that notes that you know all of this is pushing in |
| 14:17 | the same direction we need to and that you know we just need to push in on everything we've got thank you yes thank you Ron I saw that uh you mentioned that there thank you very much for that yeah great okay thank you anything else about that uh because this was meant to be about tipping points okay well I the the connection to tipping points is that rock Strom and Lenton are the um lead World scientists on the analysis of of tipping points and uh so I I think that there's a recognition of the uh of the danger of |
| 14:59 | of tipping elements and uh it's it it just it's it's simply that it it presents a really strange um logical uh Gap as to you know why is it that people can see these tipping points are happening and they can see that they're caused by temperature and and yet they uh they then just stop and say oh we're not going to do anything about temperature it's just strange to me yeah yeah uh Robert Chris yeah I just really wanted to um make the comment that I that I totally agree with Robert about the fact |
| 15:42 | that I mean strange is you it's such an extraordinary understatement to say that it's strange it is it is bizarre in the extreme because for those of you that haven't actually watched the uh wrong strongid presentation I I do commend it to you because just from the perspective of the material he's presenting I mean let leave aside for one moment the calling but just as an update on where the current science is on tipping points it's it's a very very professional a very thorough a very well referenced |
| 16:17 | presentation and and I think that it's really quite Illuminating and I as I said in my very brief note about it um it is quite extraordinary uh how um as the knowledge gaps are are gradually filled um our appreciation of quite how serious the situation gets you know worse and worse it's not that the situation has become worse it's just that we now appreciate it it's much worse than we previously thought it was and of course we're not doing anything to help it we're just carrying on following the same um wrong-minded uh |
| 16:54 | policies taking us down a very dangerous trajectory so I just wanted to say for those of you that haven't watched it do watch it because it it is really quite an Illuminating and and helpful uh presentation very very professionally done very well done and as you are watching it asked same questions that Robert and I have you know why why are they not mentioning calling at all I mean it just simply isn't referenced not at all and I mean not even not in the slightest not even the hint of it and find that silence really quite |
| 17:32 | intriguing because the one thing that the science knows is that if you want to call you have to do two things you have to you know allow more of the longwave radiation to escape and you have to reduce the amount of shortwave radiation coming in and those are the only two dynamics that are available and why is it that one of them is consistently ignored and I think that we could possibly you know use some useful uh thinking time in just trying to come to terms with that question and wondering why I mean I I I I don't I I do agree |
| 18:07 | with with with with Robert it does have a moral Dimension indeed the the the little piece that Shan Fitzgerald and I wrote for illumin um made out the point that you know it wasn't a moral ha geoengineering albino enhancement wasn't a a moral hazard it was a moral imperative um you know which kind of brings this moral argument in but actually behind that I don't think that saying it's a moral issue actually is helpful in policy terms because people are not going to to do it or kind of get behind it merely because it's a moral |
| 18:40 | imperative they're going to do it for practical reasons uh because they perceive it to in some way um provide uh added value for them in whatever terms that added value is and I think that when you start to unpick this whole this whole issue it does come down at least at least to me uh every time I kind of reflect on it it comes down to the simple question what is it that we as a global Community what is it that we really value what is it that we really want to retain and to and to um uh and to uh to to enjoy and and because |
| 19:16 | without answers to that question and they can be different for different people I think it's very very difficult to find a common way forward so and I suspect that in the coming years if we are not able to reach some understanding or some landing on that question uh we're going to basically carry on down the same path we are we have been the last 20 30 years and it's going just going to get worse until nature sorts it out for us and that would be quite sad but anyway just the main thing was just |
| 19:43 | do take an opportunity it's it's about an hour yeah if you go back to the email that I sent out I provided a link that actually goes directly to where um L where rockstrom starts because he doesn't start at the beginning of the lecture there's 10 or 15 minutes before he begins talking talking I think my my link copied your link Robert oh did you okay fine great good yeah um so but but do I mean really wor hour or bit be quicker if you do it double speed um to listen to that anyway okay thank you |
| 20:13 | thank you Robert thank you um I have my own ideas about what the what you just been talking about but let's go to John Nissen please yeah um you lost I think it was the last noac meeting you asked me to uh I well I said there was something wrong about uh thinking on tipping points so I have uh written you all something on tipping points um and the point is the basic point is that the climate science Community have got tipping points wrong they think that the Tipping Point is when the Tipping process is activated if you define it that way then |
| 20:59 | lots of tipping points have been activated already and they don't seem to take account that a lot of these tipping points are uh in the process of uh uh the The Tipping processes areel underway accelerating uh in the um case of the Arctic sea Ice uh it's tipped so far that it's now gone into the switch over uh state where where the the Tipping is is slowing down so you're slow it's slowing down uh uh as as it gradually subsides into the new State uh so when when you're a typical switch operation |
| 21:52 | uh uh involves hysteresis so you you overcome the histories is then there's an acceleration of some parameter and then as you reach the the destination State there's a Slowdown um I mean in in the case of the light switch it's a hard it's a hard Landing but um with the c i it's a soft Landing so it's a gradual thing okay um well it would be the only thing about the C ice state is that its final State uh is is is also moving uh so it's because there's so much uh driving of of the SEI Retreat it's |
| 22:47 | going to drive the retreat much further uh than it would if we removed the stimulus um so we removed the s stimulus it would settle down into a state fairly quickly um the stimulus being uh the main stimulus being the heat flux coming in uh from the Atlantic oce making it worse and worse and worse yeah yeah because that's actually growing yeah so we've got about two degrees warming of the ocean there yeah and there are TS about ocean warming more than that some anomalies a huge anomalies somewhere yeah okay thank you John yeah |
| 23:39 | yeah so so it's fundamentally practically everything you read in science about to points seems to miss the fact that they're already underway yeah right thank you yeah okay um Robert Chris uh Robert tulip rather is your next okay or Rebecca oh um Rebecca um Rebecca I thought might be getting off the bus uh all right are you there Rebecca well I'm happy to yeah let's let you go next yeah does um so what was I gonna say so the uh I I appreciate Robert Chris's um questions about you know why are there uh is this |
| 24:20 | failing and I suppose my theories on that are about the the politics of it that the the politics is modeled on the the Left Right debate with the The View that the left is good and the right is bad and uh and that uh so only by you know uh unifying the left and seing state power and um and applying uh and and destroying em the the fossil fuel industry is it possible to overcome and and once you've got that sort of Monolithic stalinist thinking then it's completely impervious to uh uh to external um uh Challenge and uh I don't |
| 25:04 | think people understand you know how the sort of mtic um evolution of cultural ideas occurs that you know when when you do have uh a vast movement of uh of ideas um it uh generates um assumptions about what's good uh and and I think that that uh uh that's uh those unconscious assumptions are are driving uh this whole idea that we're in a war against fossil fuels and I I simply don't see it in those terms because the uh if you say that we're in a war against fossil fuels then it's a war that we're going to |
| 25:47 | completely lose because uh fossil fuels are like an elephant that just U brushes off the the whole decarbonization movement it has such momentum such inertia that there's uh there's simply no Prospect of U of cutting emissions and so I think that that has to be recognized and parlay into a an effective solution a recognition that uh yes fossil fuels will continue yes carbon is a major problem but as I said in my comments carbon is a problem over the next Century it's not a problem that we're going to do anything practical |
| 26:23 | about in this decade what we can do in this decade is um uh stop the Tipping points by uh by brightening the planet and so it's about uh getting that sort of new paradigm of of thinking um on the the question of does it matter if it's a moral issue U morality is essentially practical like it's it's saying well the collapse of civilization would be a bad thing U and you know do you agree you know would it be a would the sort of scale of human suffering of you know a shift from a world population of 8 |
| 26:59 | billion down to 2 billion would that be bad I I think it would be terrible you know morally terrible practically terrible the scale of suffering is is uh is awful so uh yeah that's all thank you yeah let me just say because to me this isn't when I think about people I know they they will say Obviously of course we want to save but but we have no idea we we don't we don't know the difference between the troposphere and the stratosphere um they've got different people saying different things you know |
| 27:30 | we didn't even know that you could cool the planet you know we we thought it were just supposed to reduce our carbon footprint you know uh so there's all these different groups of people but it's the it's the sort of you know the banks and these uh large institutions you know I see sort of McKenzie ones that are supposed to be up to date for them that they look at Jim Hansen and Michael man who disagree with each other what they what are they supposed to think if the top climate scientists don't appear to agree with each other uh |
| 28:01 | and so I think for a lot of people there's there's uh you know Robert Chris you said um well it's obviously it's just this or this you know why can't why do they can't focus on this but not that I think most people are utterly unaware of that it's very clear to you and it's pretty pretty clear you know reasonably clear to most of us but but it's but that is just absent that that way of thinking that way of seeing things is just absent for most people you know short wave long wave radiation they |
| 28:28 | don't know anything about that obviously they don't want the the world to collapse civilization to collapse in the years to come but they when I I I've said this a while ago my nephew as far as he's concerned the young people today say look it's they just live as as well as they can for as long as they can because it's all been screwed up and it's and it's pretty hopeless DM is very uh um compelling for many people as a philosophy yeah uh but it takes so it takes quite a study of |
| 29:03 | Science and and physics you being reasonably familiar with what what do you mean by shortwave a lot of people don't know what radiation is you know they think it's nuclear radiation so so you know light and you know heat so you're just starting many people are starting from such a long way back that they they have no hope of really understanding what the problems are or you know what's going on um and so forth anyway I'll I'll stop there um uh let's have Chris Vivian uh and then we I'll come to you Robert |
| 29:36 | Chris okay I was just going to come back on Robert tulip's thing this is a political thing I think it's for the scientists I don't think that's necessarily true or it may be in some countries like the US perhaps but I think it's more that the idea of entertaining something like cooling is a heresy if you like a heretical thought and if you go back to G engineering itself no one was talking about it until Paul pruton published his paper in 2006 and that broke the doors open and everyone started to talk about it and |
| 30:07 | there's plenty of other examples in the scientific literature of issues that were dismissed as or even not talked about by most people because they were considered heretical classic one being that I'm familiar with being continental drift was proposed by afig Wagner in the 1920s and until the late 1960s early' 70s came along with new evidence and things that then became PL tectonics everyone then said oh yes of course and it was heresy up until that point to even consider it so I think for scientists it's not a political issue |
| 30:39 | for most of them for some people who bring politics into it it maybe but I think for most of them it's more that it's regarded as rather heretical and because it's the mainstream people are a little afraid of going out of it because they're afraid it'll affect their careers I think that's an important factor that people will forget if you go and start doing uh or advocating issues that are seen as heretical then you threaten your career particularly if you're in universities and you look |
| 31:03 | after tenure and the like and Steven Soler could tell us all about that because he's been handed out of his office and you know his his academic post yeah thank you uh Chris yeah Robert Chris let me just pick up Chris's point there for those of you that are not familiar with the most fantastic little book it's called the the of scientific revolutions by a guy called Thomas K hn you the structure of scientific revolutions scientific revolutions it's Thomas K hn it was written as a PhD thesis and it's been one of the most |
| 31:44 | high selling uh books of its type and he quoted everywhere and it deals explicitly with the point that Chris was just making um and it's a great read it'll tell you couple of hours to read it's a great great read and it really explains the point that Chris was just making about what about how scientists become um very conservative with a small sea uh and very um risk averse and so on and when new ideas emerge uh he described beautifully with lots of really great examples of how um uh the forces of of of conservation that |
| 32:25 | resisted them and how they were overcome largely because the people that were resisting eventually just died science Advan was one funeral by after another exactly so So eventually the light shines through but but do it's a great read it's a really good read I just want to pick up on a couple a couple other things that were said as well the the the point about um that John Len's point about uh these tipping points and the system I mean I I think I think that John's contribution and his email about it was |
| 33:02 | really really helpful and very very nicely written and very informative um and I think you know it has a real place but the thing that concerns me whenever I me concerns me all the time in all this and it really it reflects my somewhat different orientation from the scientists and engineers in the group is that we forget at our Peril that these um phys physical phenomena you know the Arctic amplification and um the amok and all these things that we talk about tipping points as being you know these sorts of EV we should never forget that they they |
| 33:42 | they have to be understood and located within the context of humanity and the impact that humans are having on them and it makes these systems much more than simply physical systems that obey the rules of physics they do obey the rules of physics but unfortunately the influence of humanity is now so huge across the entire piece that um understanding the the physical nature of these physical systems has become very challenging because we've introduced a lot of complexity and a lot of uncertainty uh into them that possibly |
| 34:20 | wasn't there previously so we we should always whenever we look at the science we should always remember that um it needs to be mediated through this this lens of human involvement human interference human influence whichever word you want to use but we are having a big impact um in that area so I just wanted to make that point there was something else I which slipped my mind and I didn't make a a handwritten note of it but um you think of it was it was actually at the point about um Robert's Point |
| 34:53 | Robert's juli's point about um uh the um the battle against um the fossil fuel sector and I have to say that I totally and utterly agree with Robert that um you know in terms of the the power of that that Community to resist change it's it's formidable and uh I think you know all of the evidence of History uh and and our expectations today are that that is going to be a massive massive uh issue going forward and but but I don't agree with the idea that is a problem uh and because it is going to take a lot of |
| 35:31 | effort to change them that we shouldn't try to do that because the idea of a policy that is um how can I put this that is albo enhancement or or cooling only to me is as abhorent as and as ineffective and as dangerous as a policy with his emissions reductions alone I see those two things as being equally equally bad although bad in different ways and the whole and the whole point is we have to push both of these things forward simultaneously the albo enhancement has to recognize that it's going to take |
| 36:07 | that the that the curve to to reduce the carbon is going to be long but we have be but we have to start that sooner rather than later we can't just say oh well it's going to take a long time so we'll leave it till later because that just pushes the same problem out to Future Generations we have got to bite that bullet now and start that not have expectations unrealistic expectations that we're going to get to Net Zero by mid-century because that ain't going to happen but if we don't start doing it now we're not going to |
| 36:37 | get there by the end of the century either so the The Arc of history is long but it bends towards cooling as there's one way to put it paraphrase a famous famous comment but it it it Segways into the question around radiative force and credit because uh I think the uh the issue is that uh yes removal of carbon uh has a a permanent effect on cooling that's um adding Aerosoles doesn't and and so uh uh adding uh removing carbon from the air uh uh has uh an effective competitive um uh uh benefit in terms in terms of um |
| 37:21 | the cooling return on investment and so uh um the the idea of shi to a cooling credit Market is something that would uh enable a quantitative balance between uh albo and carbon as U climate levers so um do you want to should we move on to that now then well that's that's exactly right I think Ron Ron's made the case very well in his in his letter to the IMO you know really what are the consequences of Sul for fuel reductions but I I really think it's unlikely the the IMO will just reverse their decision |
| 38:02 | overnight and you know it's it's a difficult one for them but perhaps introducing a benign aerosol alternative as an offset it might be a way they can gain some face saving here and and if we can encourage a market mechanism for that to happen that's a possibility and there's many forms of benign aerosols We Know M CL brightening and climate Catalyst and there's various options there so that could give them a way out of this because there's going to be more and more pressure coming to bear as a |
| 38:35 | result of that that decision that's been made to reduce fil sulf fuel so how that happen van H vanoo was involved in the idea of calling credits as well I think Robert so there's others thinking about this but uh that whether we could Advance the case in some way and get the discussion on another platform that that' be great to look at uh Jonathan have we moved on to the cooling credits yes we have great um well as part of a round table back in in 2016 so long ago I can hardly remember it but um we studied the issue and the first uh |
| 39:21 | thing we had to decide on was what's the units and of course the more accurate one might be jewel but we we settled on wats because it's more familiar to people and they have an intrinsic sense of um a heater you know and hitting their hands with energy and feeling the wants so we went with that and then we realized that um such a system would need a big player and at that time the um the type of energy power you know production that was done with the vast fields of mirrors onto the tower was uh pretty popular and |
| 39:58 | still still had a lot of backing so we looked at that and we thought about times when those fields could simply Point their mirrors back towards the Sun or at least upwards to the sky and they could accumulate uh cooling credits through reflection when their Tower wasn't functioning or when the grid didn't need the tower to function and that would create a large u a bank sort of that would create a large function and then uh then we realized that if it if this activity of cooling credits was coupled with laws at least in some |
| 40:35 | countries that made property owners responsible for the albo of their property then people could earn credits uh by whitening their property essentially and therefore uh there could it could be like changing your windows in your house to get a cooling credit or rather an energy saving credit from your local power grid uh by making your house more insulated so the combination of these three things the proper units a big player and a property owner uh subsidy seem to be a good start very interesting thank you yes so it makes me |
| 41:16 | think it's a good question you know how would you how would you quantify a cooling credit um it's in rad it's in radiative forcing as as Jonathan said what's persquare met you know that so mwatts if uh if we U deployed a fleet of marine Cloud brightening uh vessels then we would be able to um uh calculate the uh the cooling impact and um the uh the question then is uh does society uh value the future does society you know value avoiding collapse and you know retaining Prospect erity and stability |
| 41:58 | in the world and if so then um society as a whole should should pay for that and the uh so uh carbon the carbon credit Market would then be folded into a a radiative forcing Market because the the permanent removal of uh carbon or long-term removal of carbon uh from the system uh only has a climate benefit in so far as it cuts radiative forcing um it it also does have other benefits in terms of uh pollution reduction and uh uh ACI uh slowing acidification of the ocean but uh but in terms of its actual climate like the the real climate |
| 42:39 | Quantified benefit is purely in terms of radiative forcing and uh that can be calculated so you know by by removing CO2 from the air uh it has a um a quantifiable um RF uh impact so the international standards Association of course sought to establish a standard on this uh some years ago but were very uh quickly and and easily derailed by the en viment of the Fanatics heavy so uh a change of rad to forcing would that be satellite then would be satellite monitoring and saying you know for this length of time these |
| 43:16 | clouds were that much brighter and so the radius forcing Changed by one one watts per square meter you know for a month so here's your money would it work like that Robert is what do you think or anybody Google does a great job of taking property photographs and as you've already seen in the solar panel industry uh a solar panel company can send a property owner an exact image of their property uh taken in the daytime and show them the Hotpot for where the solar panel should be and interestingly enough that's the same kind of |
| 43:53 | calculation for where they should do their cooling either reflectivity or with a white surface so it's it's a pretty the system and the data flow is already in place to to do this kind of thing the data is already in in place when you say the data uh what data I think you've got some sort of noise coming through Ron so I'm gonna mute you for a minute yeah yeah uh yeah sorry Jonathan uh what you say the data is already there so what people have measured right so satellite photographs Jonathan Speak Up or move |
| 44:28 | close to the microphone a bit because he's a bit quiet yeah you're a bit quiet yes all right satellite satellite data works pretty well for uh determining U the rooftop uh energies for most residences at least in the United States and um there the same kind of data uh even just using regular photography and not some kind of special infrared sensor can can determine a lot about the albo of a piece of property okay does anyone think it's it'd be worth paying people you know is it it seems like might be tant you know |
| 45:11 | to to paint your roof white uh you know couple of cents was is actually worth it uh you when you think of huge areas of cloud you know reflecting sunshine away anyway but let's um so I think as it might be uh Robert julip you're on the left I don't know this there's it's not that difficult that there's extensive scientific um analysis of how to measure and calculate and and model the uh the albo um or the the the RF uh impact of uh of any action uh so uh it's uh it's essentially a question of of political |
| 45:50 | will and um the I thought that the absence of political will was quite well demonstrated by Kelly wza with her recent paper um decrying uh cooling credits as uh as an evil concept and so uh it's uh very disappointing when you've got you know the most prominent geoengineering Lobby group on the hill um uh uh refusing to speak to any of us and um and expressing opinions which are extremely harmful so uh you know come on Kelly wer come and and join us and and justify your uh your uh opinions like I I could I could get that um |
| 46:33 | making sunsets were a bit mad and I thought that the article in time about making sunsets and their work on on cooling credits was uh yeah like it just showed that uh you know they're U they're essentially punk rockers you know and so like they they're they're there to to disrupt things and um it's it's not a completely serious um suggestion that although I know Ron B's a fan of uh of making sunsets and we had a great discussion uh with uh Luke about his uh theories on on cooling credits |
| 47:12 | but yeah that's all yeah thank you Robert uh Robert Chris I didn't know my hand was up sorry it is yeah yeah I'm not going to enter into this one I've got all right I need to do more about cing credits as a matter of principle um I have all sorts of issues about these artificial markets and uh I not sure whether one would work for cording credits I've just put a little note in the in the chat about what it is we're measuring because um watts and jewels are not the same thing one's power and one's energy and um just |
| 47:46 | measuring the RF which is the power uh is not sufficient because you want to know whether it's been there for half an hour or three weeks or whether it's permanent and running 247 so uh there are there are a whole range of complexities and and then if you're if you're talking about um uh reflectors at ground level how do you account for the amount of the of of of energy that's being reflected that doesn't actually get through the clouds and get out to Alber space so there are all sorts of |
| 48:15 | local variable conditions that can affect the actual amount of albino enhancement that you're producing that can vary you know as as as the clouds come and go and through down night and so on so I just see this as being phenomenally complicated and um I'm not saying that uh it's not viable but I do think that um an awful lot of thought needs to be given to it before we could declare that it is is an idea whose time has [Music] come yeah okay thank you Robert yep Jonathan you've got your hand up thanks yeah um well it turns out that |
| 48:55 | if if you mate together a a small solar panel nicely calibrated with a mirrored surface or even a white surface uh you can get a pretty good read from the energy created by the U solar panel as to what kind of solar flux is hitting that surface for a flat surface of course so um we can we can figure out for instance how much benefit there is in having the reflective panels rotate to follow the sun just like a the advantage for a solar panel and on the cloudy days of course the solar panels not receiving as much energy so it can |
| 49:36 | give you kind of a numerical reading on how much uh reflectivity you're getting on a particular day under particular weather circumstances so the the basic construction of getting a reading of your uh numerical amount of albo enhancement is not is not altogether hard for flat surfaces H well that's fair enough for you know a flat surface on land but this is a microscopic fraction you know of the reflecting that needs to be done which is you know large parts of the ocean isn't it well not large Parts but uh the these sort of |
| 50:12 | Strat stratus stratocumulus cloud decks uh on the uh uh on the west coasts of United States and is it Namibia and Peru places like that uh so that that operation to do that Marine if that's going to be done like that Marine Cloud brightening can I just just say one that I kind of very ambivent about these things are because the underneath the underlying logic here is that if you marketize the product which is what cing credits is about you somehow um enhance the ability to deliver whatever it is that you are |
| 50:52 | marketizing so here you get the cing credits in place so you you get more calling now that to me um is a is a is is an assumption that requires some serious testing because in an emergency situation which is where we are my my expectation is that a much more cost effective way a cost and climatically effective way of dealing with this is by uh State intervention so governments make it happen and you treat the calling as a public good paid for out of the public purse it's done at industrial scale you don't fiddle around with |
| 51:30 | little tiny bits and pieces of people's domestic arrangements and their their rooftops governments get together and they do this stuff in Earnest and they pay for it from the public purse by taxation everybody's happy I can and and it happens it happens fast because governments have got the power to make it happen and I suspect that if we were balancing if we were looking at the most effective way of getting calling done that on balance that would be a come out as a more effective quicker cheaper way |
| 51:59 | of doing it than putting than inventing an artificial marketing calling credits thank you Robert um if I'm I'm just going to pitch in myself I rather agree problem is that governments are incredibly ineffective you know they're ineffectual and so uh if I was a government I'd want I'd be looking around for you know some good some you know decent company that can make things happen and pay them lots of money but then but then there' be need still need to be some way of measuring you know how you |
| 52:29 | know what's the contract with them how how much would they be paid for what well I don't I I I think that they are th those are relatively trivial problems that good if there were political will I mean it's all ultimately it's all about political will and and the problem that you're referring to there is exactly the same problem in Principle as a reason that we got we're not going to get to to Net Zero carbon because there's been a total lack of political will so that's that's |
| 52:55 | the root of all of these issues but if there were political will to treat climate change with the seriousness it it deserves across the board then I strongly suspect that a a coercive state state funded um response through albino enhancement would be the way forward not yeah all right well I mean Jim Hansen says that the problem is that the the politicians are oil soaked so you know they they they know what they're supposed to do but they they'd rather just take the money from uh and to not do what needs to be done but that's that |
| 53:31 | has been to not to curb um CO2 emissions this should should be like Mana from heaven for them because it doesn't they don't need to you know lose any money from anybody um if anything they'll get more money from some company that that's going to do Marine Cloud brightening yeah yeah um Jonathan you still have your hand up did you say want to say something yes thanks um well political will uh in theory uh comes from the people and uh the second or maybe even the primary aspect of making the uh |
| 54:06 | personal property uh wider or have a greater albo and um and and and have the people feel that effect by their house being cooler in the summer and also maybe get a little money in the in the in the mailbox from the government the effect of that is educational as well that might actually be the primary usefulness for these kind of things given how small of a fraction of the earth's surface is is people's personal houses uh but the educational aspect might be the primary in the sense that they start to realize the effect of of |
| 54:42 | of radiation solar radiation on their property the effects of cooling the effect of using white paint or or reflective surfaces and they start to understand the energy relationship to their energy costs of cooling and all kinds of things so it's a it's a wedge it's a wedge issue that can get them to be more politically active uh on a broader uh range of issues that would be nice thank you I do disagree with with Robert Chris about the uh like sure uh what's important for climate is that governments treat it |
| 55:20 | like a security uh issue on on par with the uh the Manhattan Project and uh and get together but the question of working out what to do and and how to fund it I think can be uh really usefully um Advanced by cooling credits because it means that uh industry can uh like if they want to contribute to uh or if they have to contribute to funding then um uh the decision about what to do is uh is determined by y's concept of the cooling return on investment which is is the basic uh measure of uh of cooling credits that is |
| 56:05 | you know what's what's the what's the long-term uh cooling effect and uh once that's Quantified it becomes a a basis of Taxation U it uh it becomes a basis of the funding of uh activities such as uh all of the different uh geoengineer ing Technologies and also the the carbon removal Technologies um so uh I I think it's it's a way of folding in the the current carbon credit Market into something that actually works to U stabilize the climate well I would look forward to you and Robert and others collaborating to |
| 56:48 | put together a proposal and uh fighting it out you know and uh being welcome to do the same to continue that you know in this this meeting these meetings you know because I think you both got valid points anyway um I think what we we've got 20 minutes left I think we should probably move on uh thank you everybody for that which is very interesting um by the way nice to see Hugh hun here hello Hugh ah hi sorry I I didn't actually come at the wrong time I have been doing something else for the last hour so nice |
| 57:24 | to be here yeah uh thank you yes good to see you here um I that reminds me um we even without thinking I just assumed that we'd want to make it an hour earlier but I wonder actually um thing this these meetings started I think in the winter um and uh at um at this time you know and and so it wasn't wasn't too bad for us for that you know us in Europe um and it wasn't too bad for the Australians uh and then when it came when the clock box changed we realized that it was going to be later you know |
| 57:59 | that France and people in in Europe would be you know going on to almost midnight and uh the Australians so we we kind of moved it but an hour but but then um I I I got used to starting at 9 9900 p.m uh you know British time and uh you those of you in America you you've had to so so really for you it's it's must be irit is it irritating to change from sort of 1:00 in the afternoon to to noon um on a Monday I mean we could have we could have just kept it the same we could have kept the you know the uh you |
| 58:40 | know those of us what am I trying to say at the beginning of the day uh we could have kept it the same any comments on the timing don't want to spend too long on this uh yes I I'm very much in favor of keeping it as GMT 800m GMT throughout the year and then everybody can relate to that permanently okay thank you John uh Chris yeah I was just going to say um the simpler thing might be just to Canvas opinions get a get a sort of straw poll to see where where the uh majority lie person I would support John on this one I think 800m is |
| 59:17 | better me certainly than 900 p.m. yeah okay any so who would prefer to to keep it as it is to change that you know to keep it at the same um GM so for us it's 8:00 pm GMT uh I wasn't considering for for you in Australia so Hugh you don't like it you would rather say n o'clock all the time yeah okay would anybody else prefer the the time not to change I like n o' yeah so that's two anyone else I the thing about changing it is that I mean 8:00 kind of splits the evening um so so 9:00 is the end of the |
| 59:56 | evening yeah I rather agree with that yeah uh so this wouldn't affect the Australians this would just affect uh you know the Europeans and Americans so I think not me I didn't care you don't care Bruce okay move it back and forth doesn't matter and Doug don't don't care okay so let's just leave it as it is then that's seems to be firm yeah so would would have been nice to state to so Hugh and uh Robert Chris I think and me so I think we're a bit about split really in Europe so I I'll just remain open to |
| 1:00:34 | suggestion um but for now I think it's just too much to change it back to just keep it as it is for now um right I think let's have a look at the website so I think yeah you put your uh you put some um uh links Robert Chris sorry Chris Vivian you've put some links uh just in the chat so people can look them up so need to talk about them that's great thank you okay so let's look at this um website then uh Bruce if there's nothing else I could share my screen yeah screen you just go for it |
| 1:01:10 | you've got the permission are you g to be able to fix that homepage sometime uh I have it on my list um SE my father's actually written it all out but uh yes so the short answer is yes uh uh I tell you I'll have a go it tomorrow I'll have a go tomorrow yeah okay I'm look displaying this right now for my development system I've made a few changes talking to Clive make it look a bit more modern and I'll get this up to the other website the one that you all use later on this week uh but |
| 1:01:46 | basically um so this a little bit different looking feel projects we uh Clive and Antoine and I talked a couple days ago we're going to do is pick one project possibly with the buoyant Flakes and sort of figure out how you take this from conception to funding and go through the process of actually doing that that's just headed down the things down the road um what I'd like to show you a couple things um and have the ability to add references so this is a this is ability sort of to give us a building a library |
| 1:02:18 | of things and uh Bruce do you want show us the the benefit of this that because you've added some references um well yeah that'll sell doing this if you see what I mean okay um yeah we can so look for instance I've got references spit up in many areas so you've got um uh websites so these are different websites that that people might be interested in or I've got uh videos yeah so do a like a search right has anybody got anything they were they've been looking for recently in a video good look at at tipping like |
| 1:02:56 | tipping there we go I don't have the latest ones I I'll get those added to it so here are three some videos on tipping so what it shows is the link it's an hour and 26 minutes um it was from October 2nd and you look down here and this this takes the information from the from the YouTube video it's from YouTube itself it talks about the video and then oops if I can why okay I've got this got move this thing out the way is does this look useful to anybody I mean it's it's it's nice but would |
| 1:03:35 | anybody use a thing like this who would use the a thing like this anyone use it out it would I want you one more thing on this but I can't get rid of this little bar down here give me so I can go to a no oh here we go but it Nables you to do is then go over to a um thing which has all the the text from from the from the transcript and be able to go in and say okay here I want to start looking at this particular point in the transcript again is that useful I don't know um but that's that's what it can do |
| 1:04:13 | for uh for that um or if you've got um uh websites where the references these are all the different reference is what I what you've got and I got need to show back on the on the current website you go to references for the different methods You' go into climate photo Catalyst you could go to a white paper that um clyb been working on and say where did he talk about the stratospheric something or another so you go into his document he say here are all the places in this document that he wrote in the climate Catalyst talks |
| 1:04:53 | about Stratosphere stuff so it's a way of going into documents of some sort and finding and then looking and hunting for something quite handy for me you know to maintain my own document yeah I this is C just sent me his his word doc I translate I transer I through programmatically translated that into a web page yeah and you've also got links for uh you got list of abbreviations you also got the didn't you have somewhere that you could see what the figures are there you go figures the barless figures |
| 1:05:24 | in this document yeah yeah very searching for something and also the same thing for all different tables there um yeah that's pretty I don't know how useful this would be but it's relatively it's it's set up to have um the other and also what I was trying to do also was possibly to build a a library of various other like various articles and various things so we have all different articles um AR quite quite approved yet um but these what I want to be able is categorize these but again you could |
| 1:06:03 | search these around for uh what articles is this we have have include Hansen and then you could go global warming the pipeline there an article about this global warming the pipeline yeah um I'm getting the feeling um Bruce that maybe we're the wrong audience here to be asking all about this that it should be uh Anton's potential funders talk to them and say you know what are they looking for does this help them yeah or the other thing for us it's a a good reference to go back and say we we talked about Michael man's thing or |
| 1:06:37 | Hansen thing how where you can go back through emails this is maybe another way to find it quickly so I again I have no idea me think about how useful that might be it's very easy to add stuff if I want add a um Wonder system it it may be that we we need to be using this the reason we should be using this is because if we want funding then funders have said put your data in you know because they want to see it right and it's and I'm show you quick on on adding stuff so I took took a video oops Daisy and the system |
| 1:07:13 | can gets a whole bunch of stuff automatically I can get the that video in there um so all I simply do is pop a St the the the U URL in and it automatically goes out to to YouTube and F fills all the stuff in so we can get all this stuff without having to add a whole bunch of information man all I need is a link to add to articles to um um let's got example here work this is the miracle of it automation so all I need all I need I don't so to add stuff to this database to be able to make it searchable and |
| 1:07:53 | have all this stuff I don't just all it takes is the URL I stick the URL in there and I get we get all this information so we can if you want to start building a library that might have some use and for for s for either for us uh for G where was an article that talked about whatever um I said instead of having to search through your email you just come here and look at it again I don't know if that's how useful that would be but anyway that's where that stands right now any questions or thoughts yeah Hugh got your hand up yeah |
| 1:08:25 | I I I I think I mean once it's once it's nicely populated the thing that would be really important is for it to be kept really up to dat because I think where it would be useful is say a journalist wants to find out the latest or a a PhD student wants to find out the latest stuff or it's as soon as it's a year out of date or even six months out of date um I think things are moving things are changing fast so I think um I really like it but it's going to be a a real job to keep it up to date and keep it |
| 1:09:04 | current let me show you one other thing other project Associated oh well this okay where does that I already do that this is an existing website that's been running for five or 10 years years I go out every day and I go look at probably 20 30 40 different websites plus I get news from Google plus the other places and this has this brings up these are just the Articles the last couple of weeks so in the last couple weeks I these are articles on all sorts of stuff and these These are so categorized for climate stuff |
| 1:09:48 | um so that capability is in in the system the system is quite capable of updating it self it's doing this yeah this this is not part of of of the no act but this this this I could draw from that and do the same thing have this B for Noak yeah I mean that's depends on the data coming from websites I means a lot of data comes from scientific papers doesn't it or late paper or yeah but the scientific papers are on websites so if I go out to to uh nature um climate nature whatever um I can I can pull |
| 1:10:22 | those in also and I say um what articles articles have come in recently from the top 20 organizations okay what has um the kind so I tell you what would be useful from what he has just said um I find yeah looking at data on on a um on websites I often have the same same question you know how old is this data is this up to date when was this last updated so if you can have something on on each uh article or each page or each View Bruce that says when that data was loaded then I think that would be useful to people viewing the system yeah this |
| 1:11:01 | is right here this is a date this is when it was when it was um updated date article and it's probably date added also last update okay so as long as that's prominent and people know that they they uh that's right that they that they're looking at something six months old they don't have to waste time looking at it you know oh forget that one you know one that's today this up for five or six I don't think anybody's looked at or uses it but I just had some fun playing around with it right great |
| 1:11:27 | okay and you can uh that's all right well that's how it has to be until it's nearly ready for people to to look at um and it you can sort by date can you so people could uh so this is a sort of thing people want if it was me um and looking for information i' kind of wouldn't want it to include anything would say exclude everything more than a year old you know that hasn't been updated for for more than whatever six months or a year or something yeah but that's right up here articles that of |
| 1:11:54 | the last week last month last year added whenever yeah yeah okay yeah searching so I've got all that's all that's just sitting out there yeah great okay yeah so I don't know how how useful that is but that's that's um we'll find out so but I think uh the people hear me it's impressive I mean obviously you're a great uh web developer and database guy Bruce um so but the the utility is going to be the whole purpose of this as you said right at the beginning is to get funding is to |
| 1:12:33 | is to facilitate that process whereby potential funders look at this look at this stuff see something interesting and uh and it facilitates the the process of it something useful happening basically uh so I think we've got to keep focused on that right this just out there yeah but again is sort of how else could we as a group use it how useful is it to aggregate um the the our uh videos of our of our conf for meetings to put the agendas in to articles are interested in have someplace to put those so they're easy to |
| 1:13:10 | find again I have no idea just a thought any any any answers there we've got Doug you got your hand up I was involved in a couple of very large systems in my in a for couple former lives and I'm just thinking about how people use these things um would it be possible this is just an example to have a word cloud to show the number of in terms of size of the size of the word um the number of instances of that thing that word so that at a glance you could look at it and say oh there's one I hadn't |
| 1:13:47 | thought of you know um rather than have to think what am I looking for but to have but a visual display of let's say things posted today or things posted this last week the size of the bubble of the word indicates the most prominent and just to get them on a on a visual screen would that be possible key words yeah I'm not sure you could do something like that because you simply take every word that's out in each document and have a database and count them all up and do it by size and you probably would want to restrict it |
| 1:14:23 | some what so you don't want you don't want things about Bezos or uh Elon Musk or whatever you want stuff into the climate change words yeah exactly we're in danger of getting a making our scope far too wide right I think they would be too we got Focus yeah this this is the way let's say do we want a searchable database would would that be helpful to the group of being able to understand um what you know P articles where who who one of our one of the of our discussions who talked about this particular topic um again I don't |
| 1:15:03 | know well I was wondering yesterday there was um a a thing on the BBC News uh saying that um oh you know we've really got to we've still got to concentrate on reaching 1.5° and that's the imperative thing and that and know on and on and on and on and um I just suspect that um who would even know to look at a database like this if the message out there is that um oh we can get 1. |
| 1:15:37 | 5 degrees if we go to a hydrogen economy and we drive electric cars and we stop eating beef um you know that's the answer um and you know the existence of this kind of database and all this stuff um no one's looking um and I think you know there's just a gap between what our perception of what's important and the perception of most of the rest of the planet um so we can have we can have as it can be as as clear and crystal clear as as we think we like um but who's going to is it is it for us or is it for are |
| 1:16:19 | we trying to engage somehow Engage The People really ought to be engaged Who currently aren't engaged yeah it's a Showcase of for for funders and and startups and industries and Technologies and if we can showcase what we regard as perspective Technologies and then we can do some matchmaking between funders and research agencies uh then it's got some real value yeah that that's what it needs to be for for uh and so that's that's that's the target audience Bruce I don't don't go and look at this |
| 1:17:03 | um because you know I'm either looking at my own paper updating or I'm casting all around on Google or in Google Scholar reading papers looking at notes you know this this I've hardly got time to do my own stuff I I haven't got time to you know I haven't even got time to update the homepage on this thing never mind you know learning about other people which I do know you know about because been around a while uh I worked on some of se's the buoyant flakes long long long long long long time ago |
| 1:17:34 | remember that um SE indeed yeah I thought that was a fantastic idea when I came across it must have been 10 years ago so anyway so so that's the thing Bruce I think it's it's not really I I wouldn't use it much myself other than to you know put data in and hope hope that a funer is going to see it and or in response to a funer saying look you know we we're interested in your thing but we can't we can't really understand you know we've read your paper and everything but can we see how it fits |
| 1:18:05 | into the big picture you know in the no website they might say you know fill in your data on the that's why I'd go in and do it it's really useful to have the the PDFs from a lot of these uh ideas and inventions on one place so that that's that'll be really valuable uh talking about trying to uh put in the entirety of of the internet on climate change no yeah yeah you could Poss yeah with this how what I did here was take some of the abstract some from the PDF had to do this manually but uh but again so we're |
| 1:18:44 | starting if we have if we have this limit number of PDFs we're interested in then then you've got then you've got this to search for yeah yeah that's it's great yeah what last person it's help plus 9 last person Jonathan hey there thanks um have you considered putting it live onto the internet for a period of time maybe uh seven days and maybe even submit the site maps of it to the Google and other search engines so they can penetrate it more deeply and then just sort of monitor the traffic see how many uh |
| 1:19:20 | queries you're getting to to determine whether people are actually searching for these things or whether they're finding the right search strings within your database we've got to be really careful about uh we're going to be attacked once we go public we've got to get the security right and and so we don't uh we don't get we don't all get get get this these trolls onto us so I don't want to do that until we're pretty sure of the security yeah I I keep track of of site visits to this thing and it |
| 1:19:56 | doesn't really get much use mostly mostly people who are the the 1,000 people out there just scarfing up all going to every site every page and doing stuff I don't think I don't think there's any serious uses of the stuff um there might be yeah I think the thing that we want to do we want to take maybe say say buoyant flakes whatever and get get this part going from A to Z that says how do I take a project how do I get it through what information do I need for for a potential investor what and how I |
| 1:20:30 | present that information what kind of help do we need so that's that's the next the next G to be the next focus on this yes yes okay very good all right that takes us to our uh 90 minute um limit folks thank you very much for attending great to hear from you and uh see you again in a couple of weeks thank you this |