| (Click on a 'Start Time' to view the video) |
| 00:09 | all right morning Club hello hey and Sev and Manor Joe I think it was the first ah I've been teaching all day today yeah well it's a long day for you then quite a long day um fortunately I'm able to have a little snooze before this meeting yes fireflies I think it might be um Brian actually yes that's I it's Brian's note AI Note Taker oh it's a bot oh God we're no longer Grace with his presence just the bot but he's had the bot there before uh and he did he he uh how do you say you know auspiciously is that the word I |
| 01:14 | got a tentative uh acceptance of of uh this week's invitation rather than a full acceptance so that may be why he's just put his note taker instead perhaps he's you know last time he said uh that he finally had some sleep I think Brian works incredibly hard yeah and so but I do think we should all get enough sleep uh because you're you're just yeah front loading you you are the effort you can make if you've shorten your life basically well you do you know no it's you have to take care of |
| 01:56 | ourselves occasionally yeah yeah so we have a new member Muhammad oh okay hi Muhammad yeah I think minor was going to introduce me uh but I think I would just go right now um yeah that's fine I'm a fellow who was working with um mana's organization so um which organization um Hudson reversal of Clearwater Hudson River okay okay thank you keep going yes great yeah so um here as an observer so because I'm learning so yeah yeah so okay do you have a background Muhammad apart from absolutely that organization Hudson River |
| 02:37 | so I am actually a student in Bennington College I was working with um Clearwater this winter um as a part of a fellowship that my college offers and um Mana has been trying to teach me different things in this position um this meeting is one of those um okay I don't really know much about it so okay all right we're a bunch of scientists so we meet up every two weeks and we talk about whatever we want to talk about um well within the topic of nature-based ocean and Atmospheric Cooling and uh we welcome people young and old |
| 03:17 | and any anyone who uh especially people who want to be to talk about these things that we that we do where many of us have you know so busy you're developing these Solutions or some people are you know professors or whatever it is uh anyway so the more the merrier so thank you very much uh uh Mohammed um okay you're very welcome here okay and who else have we got then um put it on we have grants hello hi Grant you look a bit different this time Grant [Music] and uh recovering from a vacation in Costa Rica so |
| 04:03 | recovering from it the difference Karen recovering from a vacation oh too much exercise okay okay I got it all right hi friends yep was that hi guys hi or yes okay well it's eight o'clock I think we should start with her but we've got here what do we want to talk about for 90 minutes today everybody I'm gonna put up the uh I've got uh here we go um put up uh we'll just write some agenda there we go hi manager thanks for bringing Mohammed along uh right so agenda and Brian's got your hand up hi Brian |
| 05:05 | welcome good morning yeah um topek could include surface reflection versus tropospheric reflection versus stratospheric reflection okay let's do this right so surface uh I'm going to say reflection yes uh Surface versus was that tropospheric reflection or Cooling reflection our related to calling yeah surfaces versus stratosphere stratospheric I hope we do we just oh sorry Stratosphere thank you straight so that's ospheric yeah the space-based ones might as well you're right good point all the exosphere and all that sort of |
| 05:59 | thing right yeah this yeah Stratosphere I think by the time you get to the outer Stratosphere that's the vast majority of the of the atmosphere so is this prompted by that uh video that I put up a link for um Brian was it something else I actually just saw a this weekend uh a technical review by a European professor and she mentioned she talks about a lot of Technologies on her YouTubes but she described the real greenhouse effect yeah this isn't it yeah is that the same one yeah it might be yeah yeah Sabine hostenfeld and |
| 06:39 | that's right she does yeah yes and that's the one great okay related to that great and I was hoping that uh because I've confessed to someone else only this morning that I really one thing I'd really confess I don't understand is why why it is that low-level clouds provide an overall cooling effect but high-level clouds such as Cirrus provide an overall warming effect and uh so anyway this would be the sort of thing that'd be very good personally I'd benefit from possibly Someone Like You Brian because |
| 07:17 | you seem to be very well informed and things like this as a physicist uh able to throw more light on it on the pump yeah and definitely add your question to the second line there because okay uh you know troposphere low tropospheric clouds and their Raw versus high cirrus clouds and they're all I think it's the difference between perhaps the L and many of a reflector and uh and a warm blanket or a cold blanket okay so let's that sounds a great analogy um so uh let's do that uh all right so uh so Clive |
| 07:56 | is uh y Jew that's what's the best way uh iron clouds cool all right Cirrus that's warm I think it's enough that's enough isn't it okay uh great okay thank you Brian anything else from anyone else foreign discussions this week has been um biofuels from sargassum but seaweed in general with a particular interest from the aviation Market and so if anybody's got anything to add to that and bring forward of knowledge that would be a great interest by fuels from folkasm AG for agiation Aviation so this is this is the Corsair |
| 08:54 | requirements are mandatory and uh government bouncing but if one could go straight to a biofuel it may be a uh and it's scale yeah yeah at scale yeah I think we are I always that's my own first thought with any anything like this would it work at scale would it be cost effective and all that sort of thing yeah okay excellent sounds like something you've read up a little bit about um brewed that'd be good for us to know about yeah yeah well I'll bring up speaking of where I've got to the boys doing sea Fields project |
| 09:34 | okay so very interesting with the finances that we're talking to on the other side okay yes okay great I look forward to hearing about that anything else if we want to do my um oh yeah yes thank you thank you thank you sir so this is yeah uh noek consensus uh yep we'll need to have the document up for that the most recent version two one yeah okay um I don't know where it is did you send me that recently Seth yes when did you send it was it the other day or today about three three days back as one of that 28th was it |
| 10:29 | um it's called a um um I sent it to all the group okay I'll be can't see it here in a minute uh it's not I don't see it do you mind selling it again uh so that people don't have to sit through all this is it easy for you to send it again I can but yeah oh hang on oh uh so more solution is is this this more solutions one no um what's that uh Untitled one it may be that try the other the Untitled attachment this one that's just an HTM I don't think that'll be it okay um this one |
| 11:30 | every third the next one February yeah here's that one that's the one okay all right so that's the version two got it okay so we'll get back so everyone knows what this is going to be about then so we've been talking about all these wonderful Solutions um and uh there's loads of them and we just keep on going on and on about them and different ones and and uh so you Sev has started to say well how about writing them down and what do which ones do we agree on which ones don't we agree |
| 12:02 | on and uh that's a process that's sort of a bit painful but but needs to be done if we're going to be serious about you know I've put quite a lot of uh of uh Chris's uh stuff in not all and okay rearrange that so the the less Nike ones are towards the end yeah okay so we'll we'll so great thank you so that's on our list of things to do that's four things um and has anyone else joined us uh anything else for anyone else hi Robert from Australia hello hi Robert as you can see we're |
| 12:41 | just finalizing the agenda if there's anything you wanted to add not today not today okay right then so um well I'm happy to go in any order perhaps this for these first two things um let's just go in the order we've got on this anyone's got a better idea yeah okay Brian then please um reflection plea please talk us talk to us about these things uh about the calling mechanisms yeah I have some data that I want to share and so I'm going to get a link it's going to take me about one minute to do it but it's the ratio |
| 13:24 | of a visible light that reaches the top of the atmosphere versus the amount of uh light that actually reaches the surface of the Earth and surprisingly I just found a reference that I'll be sharing that says 2100 units of visible light reached the top of the atmosphere and only 1200 reaches the surface of the Earth I think uh yeah just over half called 60 yeah and um that's huge in terms of the visible light because then of course uh what is it Sabine or what was her name uh yeah Sabine talks about how the mean free |
| 14:04 | path of infrared light is so short in the um in the lower atmosphere I mean you've got your reflection and reflection and reflection so to get the infrared light out you've got to go through this Myriad number of of Brownian motion mean free paths to diffuse the infrared light out to the top of the troposphere let's say or even some somewhat the stratosphere until you get to the point where the the infrared light finally makes it way back out but you know you consider that first of all this attenuation as you go deeper uh |
| 14:38 | it's either reflected or it's absorbed in the in the atmosphere and the fact that we're only seeing 60 of it at the surface of the Earth is very significant in terms of addressing the overall uh energy balance I would say yeah 60 of you said visible light or only six percent of the visible light hitting and that's the peak wavelength uh of the of the of the sun is in the visible light um that Peak um you know only 60 of it's getting through to the bottom of the atmosphere to the uh to the actual surface yeah |
| 15:15 | so if we if so an astronaut when they fly out if they fly out during the day and they they kind of reach you know the top of the atmosphere as it were sort of somewhere near the top of the strawberries to Stratosphere it's going to be incredibly bright for them yeah especially if the Sun was shining directly through the window that they they're able to look out out of it would be kind of almost double the brightness yeah I would say 1.6 1. |
| 15:43 | 7 times as bright as the surface now if someone can fix that link uh we should be able to view it and oh I think it is actually working if someone feels like projecting the link that I just put in the chat and putting it onto the screen then other people could see it but it shows this ratio of 1200 divided by 2100 or 0. |
| 16:08 | 6 as the the irradiance and of course it's peaking in the uh it should be peaking in the green light it's the the rainbow's a bit off and it shows it as a dark blue but um it should be uh it should be roughly in the in the green and uh this ratio then is just an indicator of how much more valuable a reflector in the stratosphere will be then a reflector uh let's say on your roof right it should be uh it should be 2100 over 1200 more times more valuable so let's just call that 1.6 or 1. |
| 16:47 | 7 which says that a high high reflecting service cloud in the uh in the daytime should be good at reflecting you know eight even even a one percent cloud should be good at reflecting a lot more light than you'd see on your rooftop during the day during the day and then at night you want to get rid of the service clouds you want to perhaps have a low altitude tropospheric Cloud which will be warm and even the top I wonder if the top of the troposphere is warm enough but I would say oh if it's a wet if it's a wet |
| 17:23 | adiabat then it will be warm but um let's just say a low Marine tropospheric Cloud could have a temperature of 0 to 20 Celsius and it will be very warm compared to space at three degrees Kelvin so it should radiate pretty well but then of course we've discussed how if we create ice volcanoes we get a lot of moisture into the atmosphere at night in the poles and then we um that will convect at a weight what adiabatic lapse rate which is very low lapse rate which means you'll get a high degree of thermal convection to the top |
| 18:02 | of the troposphere the top of those clouds will still be relatively warm because of the wet adiabatic lapse rate sorry run yeah yeah and those will radiate into space um so I can fill in any questions there yeah can I just say you say the wet adiabatic lapse right this is a this is a rate of flow of energy of heat flow uh rising up as it go goes up with the tell me if I'm right or wrong about this um Brian uh flow of energy in this water vapor as it can just uh as it radiates up as it flows up through the atmosphere as it rises up what do |
| 18:45 | you mean by that yes well let me explain in two steps the dry adiabatic lab straight is if you take dry air and you lift it one kilometer in the atmosphere yeah the last rate is 9.8 degrees per kilometer 9.8 degrees Celsius per kilometer which is very significant that's very cold so if you take a parcel of air at the North Pole at night and you lift it um one kilometer it will drop 9. |
| 19:14 | 8 degrees celsius if it's dry right now the wet adiabatic loves straight maybe two or three times less than the dry adiabatic Labs right so if we change yeah if we take a 100 saturated parcel of error at the surface that's just come off of our ice volcano you know you've spewed while seawater you've saturated the seawater and now it becomes convectively on well it you start lifting it it will only drop let's say for purposes of discussion four degrees Celsius per kilometer that's because the heat capacity of the water |
| 19:54 | is so high even though it's one percent moisture the heat capacity of the water is so high and it's condensing as it goes up because as you I think also double check that but because the the ability to hold water vapor decreases as you go higher and it gets colder uh it will convince from water vapor into into liquid water while the heat of condensation contributes to that lower lapsody as well right is this raising it the constant rate of uh lifting because the speed going up for foreign in terms of work it doesn't matter what |
| 20:30 | the speed is what matters is the altitude which changes the pressure okay yeah ten times as long or 20 times as long to raise the wet or the dry that that's the kind of equilibrium temperature that it would be right adiabatic means there's no heat transfer across past the boundaries of the water of the air parcel and that that means you could do it fast and if you do it slowly you're going to have to have very good insulation to make sure you don't get any it's going to transfer but it's isolated adiabatic |
| 21:03 | yes thank you so it means no heat transfer it just goes up and it changes temperature by virtue of being at a different pressure Craig it also changes volume right it's lower pressure it's bigger and and that expansion should cool it but the water vapor has an enormous effect I mean because we know water has is the enormous specific heat capacity an enormous heat of condensation so that's contributing to this lapse rate so even though it's one percent water it's having this material effect on the thing |
| 21:32 | that means that if you have a cloud that's saturated and it's moved up one kilometer it's now six degrees warmer than the surrounding air and as we know warmer air is less dense air and that causes a convective instability that'll go to the top of the troposphere and so now you have an unstable equilibrium that's why you get these roiling cumulus clouds going all the way to the top and what's interesting is that will convect plenty of heat to the top of the troposphere which will radiate into space in an infrared way |
| 22:02 | just as Sabine articulated in her video uh that you know you get to the top of the troposphere and then the mean free path gets long enough and then the effective distance to space in the infrared becomes infinite so I think we've got an active mechanism here but I think this underscores the value of a reflector in space or in the stratosphere uh is maybe 60 more valuable than one on the surface of the Earth and then similarly one in the troposphere will have an intermediate value but effectively the first |
| 22:36 | opportunity is to reflect visible sunlight into space and then if we're dealing with our infrared Brownian Wok a Brownian motion the drunk what is it the drunken uh the drunken walk in random directions at each step well you've got to probably go through a thousand you know Reflections uh in the troposphere on your way up to the stratospheric boundary and then finally get to a mean free path where you can effectively reflect the infrared back into space so it's a much lower process brilliant bread and it means in the |
| 23:09 | meantime you've heated up all that air effectively a one percent well let's say a one percent reflector at the top of the atmosphere would be only a point six percent reflector worth as much as a point six percent reflector at the surface our difference now yeah so and and this is into yes in terms of efficiency of heat reflection so for anyone that missed it I sent out an email link to um this this lady sends out uh what I call accessible scientific uh you know on top you know top explains it quite well and I said yep okay you go ahead |
| 23:50 | and finish and then I I realized I made a mistake there okay okay right yeah um I said so her title was I thought I understood how global warming works it turned out I didn't and then she then explains in this more complex way that what Brian has just been saying so um have a look at the no act uh if you haven't seen it recent thing I sent before yeah so please continue my correction is the following it's actually even worse because let's say we put a Mirror On Our Roots all right to that for that mirror to work you're |
| 24:21 | gonna lose 40 of the sunlight coming down then you're going to reflect it and you going to lose 40 percent of the sunlight going back up because if it doesn't make it back into space it is going to contribute to global warming and thus the first order it's 0.6 times 0. |
| 24:40 | 6 or maybe one-third of that visible light will get back up so by that argument you could say that a reflector in the stratosphere might be nearly three times more valuable than a reflector on your roof because you've got a factor of 0.6 coming down and 0.6 going back up with visible light yeah okay so that's in terms of efficiency of not warming the atmosphere correct the invisible divisible transmission and you know I think that under a reflector in the stratosphere maybe two or three times more valuable than one on the surface yeah yes okay I'm only say I'm just sort |
| 25:19 | of qualifying that as in terms of reflective uh efficiency and and of not warming up the troposphere um I'm just sort of saying this because there are people here uh for example friends who will say okay that's all well and good but you then lose the uh you lose the uh oxidative capacity of the troposphere to um to deplete methane because these interactions especially UV into the troposphere causes these oh radicals uh to be formed which cleans the air so so that's just another that's that's |
| 25:58 | another thing I'm just saying that um that no is that that's both things in one there is a physical and a chemical there's a chemical yeah exactly there's a physical and a chemical and what you're talking about Ryan is saying that there's definitely a physical benefit to doing it from a high high place and and friends are saying that's we're all well and good but there's a chemical drawback um so well yeah keep in mind I think we have to replete ultraviolet light in the middle of the day uh France can correct |
| 26:29 | me if you're wrong but my guess is the reaction is limited by AI the the aerosols and the particles and the HCL radicals that are available and not the ultraviolet photons do you have a sense for it friends uh I I would say if you if you have a reflector in the an aerosol in the stratosphere it takes a lot of UV away yeah this is when I'm thinking of rate limiting reactions that we have replete ultraviolet available for these reactions and whereas I think we're limited with the HCL radical so I would |
| 27:14 | offer that um you know the more HCL molecules we get up there the better we'll get maybe the reaction would be proportional to UV but maybe it's not limited by UV availability but I think if you have a an aerosol above you can make less OS radicals and they as a surface uh well I think what Brian's saying uh friends is yes you have less UV but it wasn't it won't be much less because uh there's already lots and lots of UV in the troposphere from where where shall it come from worked from from the Sun it comes from |
| 28:02 | the Sun and uh the the shortage it's not the limiting it's the the amount so this is I'm only just trying to re you know interpret see if I got this right what Brian is saying he's saying that there is a limiting factor that there's something that limits the amount of oh radicals and the limiting factor is not the amount of UV there's already far too much UV the limiting factor is the chemical some other thing um some chemical uh capability or amount of oxygen I don't know that makes it or |
| 28:36 | also in the atmosphere is it Brian do you have a reference for for this uh no I would suggest the following analysis if we look at the life cycle the time that's spent for the HCL molecule to go through its entire cycle from being uh CL minus to I mean HCL this L minus two reacting with a methane to going back onto the particle and then being ready again and look ask the percentage of time that that molecule is actually waiting for a UV Photon to excite it um that's the percentage that's the critical time you know interval and then |
| 29:17 | compare that to the entire life cycle time uh then we'll see okay to what extent is UV actually limiting it may only have a small effect on the total time to recycle a molecule uh the uh the uh UV absorber is is iron and not throwing yeah but the the same point applies I just meant to to outline the framework for the calculation yeah so yeah we could do that yeah so Brian is talking about the actual einstold aerosol methane depletion reaction France uh yeah which is your creation you know your Discovery and uh |
| 30:01 | and um saying that yes we know that the UV it it excites the iron atom and it releases a chlorine uh it really it releases it oxidizes the iron isn't it and it releases a chlorine atom and the chlorine atom must find the methane molecule uh and make HCL and then the HL comes back into the particle into the into the water coat but so Brian is saying that this takes a little while for this chlorine atom to come out for to find a methane molecule for the HDL to come back and but the time it has to wait for a UV |
| 30:36 | to go out again is so short very short time and uh it would if if you make less UV maybe it changes from one microsecond to two microseconds but if the whole process takes one second then it just changes it by a very small percentage I think that's Brian's point so yeah I think we can do that calculation based on initial fundamental principles and uh that'd be interesting to look at to see you know if you have the UV how much do you change the time scale for the round trip yeah that this is these are one of the many things we'd |
| 31:13 | love to be able to do if there was funding we could do these tests we'd be able to say this is this is what we think it's envelope with an envelope and an encyclopedia we could probably write it down and figure it out in an hour well so um yeah okay uh France Brian says that they can do it from first principles they don't need to do um a chemical test analytically dude if I had a reference for that uh I would uh I would be glad okay well I'm happy to to work with people on this I mean we know the |
| 31:53 | concentration of methane we know the Marine free path we can you estimate the time you must for instance if you if you take a an oh radical and uh compared with a chlorine radical a chlorine radical has an uh much less Affinity to to the liquid phase where it comes from you know it is expired from the liquid phase because it is much it likes much more the gas phase like methane while oh radical is more more polar so says more in the liquid phase yeah and and and so uh I think uh uh chlorine can a very fast move do this |
| 32:53 | move between uh has oxidation of methane coming back as HCL and then again uh reduce the cycle and so on yeah that would be much much faster than no way it's really good so uh a difference in UV would possibly act more on on the Korean reaction then on the oh radical reaction quite possibly I agree uh I think another thing we should look at is uh when either of these ions gets into the atmosphere what is the mean time to collision with a methane molecule and we could calculate that from statistical mechanics |
| 33:46 | on the concentration yeah but we know the atmospheric concentration and so we could calculate that and I'd be very interested to look at that time scale compared to say the excitation time scale so be interested yes please Brian um uh we if you know someone um that can do that we're not we're good at chemistry we're not so great at math well I can help to set up the uh what I'm going to call the astrophysical calculation which is right to zero significant digits we can calculate the order of magnitude of each of these |
| 34:21 | processes and that should set some shed some light on whether this is a one percent effect or 100 effect uh you know I think uh Franz has got the chemistry I've got a little bit of statistical mechanics but I think we can get several of us together to try to review what I'm going to call it back at the envelope astrophysical calculation the Henry Constance for instance are all known from oasia Korean and so on yeah excellent yes tell us about the uh moisture Affinity or other aspects a point of uh Affinity isn't it |
| 35:13 | yes it's it's uh uh how they um it gives the if it wants to be in the gas phase or in the water phase uh that's that's a measure of this yeah excellent okay sounds good so my explanations are really nothing well we know but just so that we know what we're talking about we agree on this and um so thank you very much Brian you know I I can email you I can't do anything this week not much really this week but next week or from from Saturday be fantastic to have a chat about that and work out you know make sure we we've got |
| 36:00 | all that set up that being very helpful to us thank you um I'm saturated with back to back uh seaweed speeches between now and Saturdays so it won't be till the weekend of this but okay let's do a follow-up call on it right would I be right to call it kinetics reaction kinetics um yes that's a good start I would say and also uh catalytic time skills to do a full round trip of the Catalyst and we want to understand the catalyst efficiency in other words how many how many times around the block do we get |
| 36:36 | before the catalyst is destroyed both of those will be uh highly relevant so let's just say catalytic efficiency and time scales for the iron chloride reaction right and maybe the oh reaction yeah I mean we have other excuse me other reactions we're talking about now as well involving other correct chemical species so it's very helpful Brian thank you very much okay you'll be hearing from us very well yeah great okay um so coming back to this is there anything else so this is about reflections |
| 37:11 | so I still um so that makes sense that during the day actually cirrus clouds because they're higher they actually do reflect more heat away than than low-lying clouds because the low-lying clouds they're not there to reflect heat away as it gets absorbed by the troposphere before they reach reach the low-lying clouds but presumably during the night um the low-lying clouds are much better at holding the heat in and the cirrus clouds somehow let it Escape is that right I mean yeah two things uh and that is that |
| 37:46 | um if we're going to brighten clouds uh a one percent brightening in the stratosphere is worth almost the three percent brightening in the in the troposphere low troposphere uh and so I think that's one thing we can conclude from the first topic but then secondly uh I think we should contrast the warm and moist uh Marine clouds that may be less than one kilometer above the surface compared to the cold and icy um cirrus clouds that will be uh very very near the top and um of the of the of the stratosphere now |
| 38:26 | uh when we consider at night they're infrared radiating capability um there are two things going on and that is uh that the when it comes to infrared radiation the low Marine Service Cloud no marine marine strata cumulus cloud I should say is a very good infrared Radiator in the sense that well it's warm and represents a warm if it's got a visible path to space and we'd of course understand the mean free path from Sabine to understand just how visible it is but it will likely contribute to infrared radiation |
| 39:09 | space whereas the high service Cloud at night is actually a bit more of a blanket first of all it looks cold relatively cold going into space so it's going to be less of a radiator and it may attenuate some of the infrared from getting out there and secondly um I expect that uh it acts serves as a blanket and prevents uh a lot of the light and heat energy from getting out into space from underneath and so um those are some examples of the distinction of those two clouds that said both kinds of clouds are white body as |
| 39:48 | opposed to black body radiators and turns out a black body radiator is a lot more efficient at radiating infrared than a wide body um nonetheless I think sabine's point of the mean free path of infrared light in the troposphere being very short means that we're counting a lot less on that radiation initially and a lot of it's simply scattering of infrared light until it gets to the top of the troposphere let's say if we make an analogy the cirrus cloud might then be like the aluminum foil which they wrap people up in it's very |
| 40:22 | thin but it keeps the heat in uh whereas the the Marine cloud is much more like a a woolly blanket that's a good point I think that is a good analogy Sav and I think it would be worth tracing in our own minds in a little more detail than Sabine did the number of uh Reflections we need to get it infrared parcel of energy let's say from the surface of the Earth all the way out into space we can probably calculate if it's a hundred or a thousand or a million Reflections or bounces before it actually gets into |
| 40:56 | space and that of course will determine the diffusion going up as well as the diffusion going down because sadly it's not it's not like those beams of sunlight coming down and hit us very very deliberately this is a random walk that the drunken uh sailor if you will who's well you know the photon is going to go up half the time and it's going to go down half the time and it's only going to diffuse towards space on average because it gets a bit colder as you get out there and and so I think uh |
| 41:25 | that contrast is really substantial particularly when we consider the multiplying effect of water vapor mm-hmm yeah okay that's really great Brian I've got a better insight into it now I've got a better feel for uh how come it is that these low-lying clouds uh um have an overall cooling effect so it's it's um they're not they're not bad reflectors but they're good radiators as well at night they're better radiators at night they're radiating heat out yeah the other related point is that um |
| 42:01 | you know in previous talks we've discussed how uh wet adiabatic convection of of heat energy through the toposphere maybe in some ways uh more of an efficient heat transfer than the uh infrared drunken walk if you will uh and part of it is that uh you know you've got a very deliberate convection because of the wet Eddy backlabs right so we have a moist parcel that we've created with our ice volcano at night uh in the polls uh it it's going to convect up to the top of the troposphere tropopause |
| 42:33 | and at that point we'll do a good job of radiating the energy into space so it happens in the sun you Convent convection followed by radiation it also happens in the atmosphere I would say at night uh in these kind of what uh situations near the pulse and that's another great uh comparison to think of the sun um has the same kind of General process obviously much higher temperature but it's convection up to the surface and then radiation well actually it's very interesting because part of the sun is convective |
| 43:08 | and part of the sun is radiative even though that's core and mantle and you know different zones yeah I don't remember the exact configuration but It suffers the same trade-offs that uh infrared uh I mean are visible radiation and scattering is actually much worse than convection in certain regimes in the sun's atmosphere and the sun's body okay so so that's just one example of the same thing that happens in the atmosphere and that is under some conditions convection will convey more heat than radiation will infrared |
| 43:40 | radiation thank you very much for that it's great to have you in this group right anyone else something but a lot of the words going down into the ocean penetration as well if you read on through that article um quite fascinating stuff here uh that this impact on on phytoplankton of good romantic further down this one here down here yeah um I put on my screen go back to your thoughts just keep going down that and yeah it's it's a good read okay it's all sorts of implications on Ocean warming perforation circulation a little |
| 44:30 | homework for all of us yeah like yeah okay we should discuss this on a subsequent call okay then and this who who did this link come from was it you Brian or or I just I found it on a Google search because I wanted to understand this relationship of visible light oh okay that visible light uh is probably relevant for the ocean as well which Peaks its Transmission in the in the green and blue yeah okay and so having uh phytoplankton near the surface is quite good at reflecting yes preventing the exactly deep motion |
| 45:08 | from Heating it's interesting for this I mean you're you're talking about four percent reflection off the surface of the Earth um which is really a relatively small amount by comparison to what's coming through Brian um but Roger Shorty would be interested in this he's the man that's talking about putting you know mirrors in space to reflect light away this just made his project much more efficient well I'm still a fan of clouds so let's look at clouds high and low it's so much easier to make an aerosol |
| 45:48 | or a cloud than a relative to anything else or just look at the role of particulates and cooling the atmosphere nearly one degree yeah John he was going to say two things could you uh come in a bit late could you put a link to this thing on in the chat sorry uh or I'll send it out John they'll you'll get the link okay my my other point is that um uh the the typhoons and things uh um which are getting more extreme or actually um providing a very strong uh negative feedback to global warming um they certainly do cool the ocean and |
| 46:44 | cool the atmosphere to some extent uh and convey heat towards the poles um the more typhens I wonder are they if they're going to contribute to Polar warming just because they they do bring heat to the poles so readily um so that's an interesting question but yes having experienced uh category five tycoon in the Philippines a year ago December um the cooling can be noticeable surface ocean temperatures can drop five degrees Celsius after a uh a strong typhoon and has a profound effect there and yeah it's effectively turning ocean |
| 47:22 | heat into atmospheric heat which could potentially radiate towards the towards space but yes uh I would say that there is a cooling action to hurricanes um so so uh efforts to kind of diminish that um might back bar to some extent so if we if we try and call the uh Sea Service in order to reduce the intensity of the hurricane that might um backfire and look the the hurricane will then radiate much less the space well if you bring up a good interesting point I think there may be some effective ways to um provide some of the cooling of a |
| 48:11 | hurricane without this disastrous uh mechanical impacts uh and either a series of smaller storms or in fact in our case in the ocean uh when we up well water um we're actually uh doing what the hurricane does without the mechanical damage because that's where a lot of the cooling is coming from is deeper down and so I think we need to consider if there may be some less catastrophic processes that could convey the heat polar um as an alternative to an increased number of hurricanes um it's far better to have a whole lot |
| 48:51 | of little storms and hurricanes rather than a category five one you know basically we're we're smoothing the the amount of uh of uh precipitation and Storm surges uh over a longer period and therefore we get fewer floods and fewer droughts hmm absolutely right yes John I think that really would give geoengineering a bad name if you told people sorry you're going to have to get blown to bits by more hurricanes because we need to cool the Earth um yeah we've um one of the problems about the hurricanes and the typhoons is because |
| 49:32 | of the uh jet stream sticking uh you get get the movement of these systems block and then they deposit huge amounts of rain such as happened in Texas three times the record previous record was dropped because I can I can't remember which one it was um but there was an article in the agu is that this year recently oh no no the article was a study of hurricanes was include was one of the places so the hurricane was uh this this um three times the uh normal rainfall of was it ever had so three times the maximum that they'd had before yeah and |
| 50:25 | that happened what typical because the uh in recent years when did it happen when did they get three times ever before oh there was a recent huge flood in Texas oh government for how many years it was only a few years ago I think I think it might have been hurricane Ian if I recall rightly I'd have been hurricane [Music] okay uh I know there was one in uh Dallas that's right there was one on this on the okay yes all right so so therefore cooling cooling the Arctic and getting these uh jet stream moving again |
| 50:59 | uh can help enormously to reduce the effect of oh yeah almost severe effects of hurricanes and Titans yeah absolutely yes yep Brian yep uh so uh two two points uh let's see the first is are you saying then John that a larger polar thermal gradient uh would that contribute to more hurricanes or less because I thought it was a temperature difference it might be filling the hurricane it's the temperature difference between the Arctic and the Tropics or or lower latitudes which which drives the most period uh wave problem is to a drama planet and |
| 51:44 | if you reduce the the energy into that raspy wave it'll uh it'll tend to meander and move more slowly around uh the planet and it's that that causes is causing the weather extremes and normal hemisphere I mean of course it's denied by climate modelers because it's very difficult to forecast anything which is dynamic like that uh so their models just to do not capture the dynamic aspect of the system but for physics is quite clear yeah if you reduce that temperature gradient uh you're not going to reduce the amount |
| 52:31 | of energy going into that raspberry wave and it then behaves it the meanders more get stuck it gets goes into loops it's like a an Old River as compared to Young Rivers sorry a young man that goes kind of straight with a tiny uh Rickles and the um and the Old River meanders and and you get oxbow lakes and things like that um and and it's more easily blocked um by receiving a resistance yes I guess one of the questions I would have though is we've got our Meandering temperate River but then the ramifications for the tropical and |
| 53:19 | subtropical hurricane uh does weaker Ross be mean stronger hurricanes or is it some other relationship um yeah what what it means is you get this blocking effect which which stops the hurricane in its or it slows it down and makes it effectively more intense underneath um it means it makes it more damaging underneath isn't it just sits there longer doing damage for longer doing damage especially with the flooding yeah yeah I think we have a tropical Cyclone setting off Brisbane right now and it's looking like it's gonna stay |
| 53:59 | there a while all week maybe so there's a big big debate uh I'm having uh well I'm trying to have uh on whether what's happening in the southern hemisphere it may be possible but the opposite is happening with the uh the gradient is increasing um multiple West Antarctic this is the difference in temperature between the pole and the the rest of the earth that when it's when you've got a huge difference because the poles are walking down if I just say this for some of the other people here the polls are |
| 54:36 | warming up so fast that there isn't so much difference in temperature between the poles and the rest of the earth and so this is this smaller gradient to get this Meandering jet stream um but what's happening in the southern hemisphere it might be the opposite the um in the northern Heavens the westerlies are weakening and you can actually register that because instead of having the Gulf Stream blowing uh being blown uh hard towards the east it's less hard and the sea level rises on the east coast of uh |
| 55:18 | of the us as a result of that now in the southern hemisphere uh apparently the winds are strengthening now they are and not southwesterly they're northwesterly uh and they are blowing the salt Nation towards the ice the untouched guys and some people think that this is why the ice shelves are breaking up and when the eye shells break up also an acceleration of the glasses behind them with weights is is a major concern because it's uh it's got this retrograde grounding determination which means that as it Retreats it with less resistance |
| 56:11 | whereas in if you've got the brown sloping the other way as you Retreat you get more resistance so when you get less resistance as you Retreat that Retreat is reinforced so you've got a positive feedback yeah and that's a big worry with the suede's class here yeah and I can confirm the Roaring 40s are actually getting stronger in the southern hemisphere which is profound uh I think it may be contributing to even more ice in the winter but less ice this time of year in the austral summer so we are getting very close to a record low |
| 56:50 | of sea ice in the southern hemisphere this year yeah interesting it's sharing a very positive jet stream around Antarctica at the moment if you looking at uh planetary analysis climate what was that looking at what was that the jet stream Miranda where did you find that you said looking at climate climate climate reanalyzer so if you're going to today's forecasts and swing around to the uh um go down to the jet you'll Super Bowl I don't know this climate reanalyzer oh you need to know that um |
| 57:28 | like that uh yep there we go I've been using windy recently click on that right yeah they can be good for side and you whoops you'll find it all um it's a very useful quick tool yeah yeah so we can find our way around okay yeah you get a temperature anomaly in today's temperature maps and um that's that's pretty telling then swings around through different views and you get a but flat to us but okay so I click on okay so it just does its own thing does it doesn't you can't control it it just no it just does |
| 58:12 | another thing yeah so see service temperature anomaly okay which is pretty extreme right New Zealand at the moment yeah and uh actually New Zealand is about to be the recipient of that uh tropical cyclone that is off Brisbane right now in a week's time we'll be hitting the north island of New Zealand we may be able to see the cooling effect of that tropical cyclone in real time because it cuts through it quite possibly I would say you'll probably see a Blue Streak running from Brisbane down to the north island of New |
| 58:46 | Zealand in a week's time right wow hey friends we should be looking at this this map this thing I'll save that so yeah we use this one here null school but uh I think Wendy's probably a bit better than that yeah um and uh Google Maps and there's all sounds all kinds of things okay uh so how are we doing for time we've nearly had an hour uh right let's see what else so we don't we want to have some time to do sev's uh uh topic uh oh bro okay let's hear about biofuels okay so this comes up |
| 59:29 | um I'm been doing some work with the sea Fields guys um and we ended up with a conversation earlier this week with a banker financing who's a specialist in the aviation industry as funded a number of Airlines wealthy individual um I'm particularly concerned about Corsair and the offsetting for the aviation industry um now the great belief in Marine carbon drawdown but time to get things in place methodologies and agreement over sequested carbon so the next question was is it a faster route to producing |
| 1:00:16 | biofuels at scale from Marine helps you suck has some other seaweeds um given us a lot of space and given that one ought to be able to scoop this stuff up and spin out and compress it and such like and perhaps deliver it to Mr Shell's refinery um how realistic is it to you know the large large amounts of biofuel from sargassum growth in this particular instance I wonder if anybody had any views or knowledge all the chemistry of creating aviation fuel from Marines uh so pnnl has completed a study on hydrothermal liquefaction which is a |
| 1:01:03 | pressure cooking um hydrated processed for producing bio crude from seaweed biomass it is likely feasible I mean that's probably viewed according to marinara's less technically difficult than affordable growing of seaweed and and its collection I mean I think there's some interesting challenges with sargassum but fundamentally um we can look at it as a Cascade of value and putting on my astrophysicist hat for a moment uh we have some applications that are at uh ten thousand dollars per ton diametric ton of seaweed |
| 1:01:43 | some that are at one thousand and some that are at 100 and the first order the the fuel the biofuel techno economic value is closer to 100 than it is to a thousand uh and so we're working down the Cascade of value chains uh towards Aviation fuels but it's going to require a lot a fair amount of subsidy to build that pathway as we work down the two orders magnitude cost reduction that we can anticipate from Marine permaculture platforms as we move from one hectare two thousand hectares to a million hectares of Deep Water Irrigation which |
| 1:02:16 | provides a replete supply of nutrients the challenge with sargassum is that it's nutrient Limited and you can do 10 to 40 megatons per year of sargassum but to get to the gigaton level you're going to need Deep Water Irrigation which is why we're developing Marine permaculture as a solution to reach the gigaton levels if you go to my seaweed carbonization method if you simply make the the conditions slightly less extreme you'll get liquefaction and turning into things like things which these shell people |
| 1:02:56 | could turn into uh sap correct so that and that's that's processing that would be processing with sargassum at Sea where you collect it you'd simply have one of these long pipes down into the ocean where the where you get the hydrothermal liquefaction occurring uh probably using one of the the maltex uh small nuclear reactors to give you the the extra energy and then you produce a liquid product which you can then uh take in a tanker to the nearest Shell refinery that's a great idea seven I'm curious is |
| 1:03:33 | it is the pressure cooking more efficiently done on the ship or uh 100 or a thousand meters below the ship oh definitely below the ship because the gravity is doing a pressurization for you yeah you don't have to use any energy to to make the uh to give you the pressure and indeed if you use the uh the micro Bubbles as well you can get um the the extra energetics from decavitating micro bubbles to rip the biomass apart fascinating I'd love to read your write-up on this is it on your website um if you go to that more solutions |
| 1:04:17 | document you'll see uh a summary of it towards the end lovely lovely is that uh which website is that on uh I I send it out to this this group a number of times MRI document very good thank you okay so that's interesting um yeah anyway it's our goal uh with Marine permaculture to supply Deep Water Irrigation services to seaweed Growers around the world including sargassum and to have this be broadly broadly applicable uh to ensure that we can move from let's say the 10 Megaton level that's being done naturally right now |
| 1:05:02 | towards the gigaton level which will be required in the years ahead to make a dent on aviation fuel yeah well clearly we want to get there fairly quickly and it does strike me that that sort of production um and those sort of carbon offsets or Replacements of a biofuel doesn't require the sort of methodologies and agreements and verification that taking seaweed and sinking it into the deep ocean and saying that sequestered might take and also um any point could persuade the hydrocarbon companies who have huge expertise in refining of materials |
| 1:05:45 | to make fuels that here is a source of oil um you know consider this like finding a massive new oil find but which is again it is the planet good instead of harm and it's going to cost a fraction of the money that it costs to exploit a new subsea oil fund where the infrastructure is colossal which should be far far smaller on our side the set of a reasonable argument to put forward I believe so I think we're we're having some of those conversations uh with some members in the oil and gas industry and |
| 1:06:21 | I think there there is some research in biofuels we're approaching this commercially from a uh incremental phased approach and that is let's move through the value chains of food feed and fertilizer and sure we have food security which provides it puts us on the moral High Ground as well I mean in many ways it's akin to Motherhood and apple pie we do need to feed the world and keep our you know keep keep food security for 10 billion people going uh while we try to address the disruptions that are occurring socially and |
| 1:06:50 | environmentally um then then as we move to higher volume and lower cost we move from let's say feed and low value fertilizers into high value fuels and uh then I think you know we can move towards those those levels early research can be done now it's a bit of slow going I'd say with oil and gas at the moment which is a bit ironic given the 40 to 60 billion dollar profit levels that were reported in 2022. |
| 1:07:19 | the top two companies alone earned 100 billion dollars last year uh it's good to me where you are okay well I'm calling you for further verification but I need to encourage these guys yeah very well and you know I think we can help uh help them get from 100 from 10 megatons to a gigaton because we'll need the Deep Water Irrigation to do that irrigation systems may work just as well which irrigation no sense but I think void flakes to surface water for uh sargassum growing seems to me to make a lot of sense |
| 1:07:58 | and the the over spill is just going to bring back life to the rest of the ocean right I think we just need to look at supplies uh we are looking at limited phosphate and these days nitrate that's four to seven times more expensive than it was 12 months ago but um you know to subject to the concerns of adding inputs to the oceans directly um yeah I think there there we have to try all the mechanisms and uh and you know there's we need we need uh 50 climate wedges to get to a a decent drawdown state there's two gigatons of phosphatic clay |
| 1:08:37 | waste in Florida alone which can't be used for anything else so lovely we can use that to to fertilize your sargassin play a good that'll be a good start Kickstart I'd say are there nitrogen fixing seaweeds like well indirectly indirectly um there are look at tricidemium as an example it's actually what might be classified as a plankton but uh trichodesmium is a nitrogen fixer that has an anaerobic there's the little filaments of cells and every nth cell chooses to become a reducing nitrogen |
| 1:09:18 | fixer and gets uh its nutrients from neighboring cells and contributes nitrogen to those neighboring cells so it's actually quite a complex symbiotic activity from cell to cell with organisms like trichodesmium and half a dozen other diazotrophs which are effectively the nitrogen fixers of the ocean well that's it's a bit more like micro is that nitrogen getting sick is that nitrogen getting circulation for other creatures definitely yeah yes good yeah so it's it's definitely part of that cycle and uh there are plenty of |
| 1:09:53 | diazotrophs in the sea and if you had a bit of iron they go bonkers yeah but it's all phosphate limited you're not going to get phosphorus from there you know it sounds uh touched on it you know I give you a ton of phosphate waste can go a long way yeah so many opportunities it's making some sense Muhammad can you follow it um I'm trying my best it's it's really nice to listen to all of you um I was looking at the things that you have shared in the chat and I mean yeah this is great learning from all of |
| 1:10:35 | you um yeah and I will do my personal research later yeah yes that's great yes that's great thank you yeah sure okay um thank you so Sev so anything else I think that's complete I think isn't it um Brew um that's a great great topic um okay uh so last thing uh said these times go by so fast but it does now it can census yeah um so and that came up uh where did it come up somewhere like here uh this one here uh so how do you want to do this this time um sir I think going through it before was was |
| 1:11:24 | quite good with you making changes to each statement or adding them from from any of the other contributors as we go let's let's try and get through the first 10 this time okay so um should I read this should we just those people have got that already no just let's go to the statements then yep and so do you want to start with the first one okay so uh this is what we're seeking to have consensus on right carefully constructed climate interventions are the only way we may be able to avert the worst |
| 1:12:04 | results of anthropogenic global warming you know anyone disagree with that I'm not sure about the word only are are are an essential way perhaps but well do you know any other other ways of doing it well there's more unless we do some unless we intervene we're going for for Hot House Earth interventions the way we the only way uh well I I think the the other side of that coin is laws and structures and and system management are another key part of it which is why a big concerned about the word only but I do it's essential I agree it's |
| 1:13:01 | essential I agree with brew that only is a difficult word if the universal qualifier and I think it needs to be made more specific secondly the sentence needs to be specific as to time scale because in 500 or a thousand years of course uh it'll be all taken care of but in the meantime you know so in our lifetimes or in the century um you know I would say uh you know in the 21 in the 2000s yeah how about another key way to we may be able to well but but they still need the time element Sev right okay we'll just say so within human time |
| 1:13:43 | scales within human time scales what's that brown Brian perhaps the century go ahead the century yep I think I think it would be better to say rather than the only way uh that uh in interventions are needed to avert the worst results um okay I think that that's I like that that's yeah I think that that's less provocative because saying it's the only way is implying that um carbon dioxide removal and emission reduction are pointless I I hope it goes first to say are essential to avert that's true I mean the worst results uh |
| 1:14:35 | certainly are a qualifier and so I would say the worst results this century uh but yes it could be essential to avert the worst results this century um if you include uh tipping points then of course it's uh extremely urgent yeah and I don't like the inclusion of century as a time scale because that plays into the ipcc uh language that uh that such uh interventions can that consideration of such interventions can be delayed for 50 years um what if we say in the coming decades perhaps I was I would say essential and |
| 1:15:20 | urgent because of the Tipping points yes so many tipping points already activated we don't need this Century just just delete it just delete this century and change yeah yeah in the coming decades or this decade well no I think if we just at this point just to say that it's needed is uh is a sufficient statement which can be further expanded in subsequent statements in terms of all right in terms of time scale okay well even in coming years because I think of course the Earth's gonna be fine but she may |
| 1:15:57 | have rejected uh human civilization in the meantime um which is a is a terrible result um I'd prefer to say immediately immediate okay and coming years either way yeah like we should have we should have done it we should have done it 10 or 20 years ago right I'm sorry when that's the case then you know the the sooner the better yeah yeah okay are they going to be worse but by not doing anything today and leaving until tomorrow the uh results are going to be worse every day we leave it is making it |
| 1:16:39 | worse yeah greenhouse gases and uh just delete the word ah right but the worst results are of uh sorry uh so where are results of Anthony thank you yeah yeah okay yep so next one yeah greenhouse gas emissions reduction and even the achievement of immediate zero emissions is now insufficient to avert the escalation of the climate crisis into one that threatens civilization and a global biosphere with destruction to say nothing of the economy in the lives of future Generations not great well but that that phrase the |
| 1:17:22 | achievement of immediate is a uh what do you call it a bit of a straw man uh because it's it's not possible um and uh the uh so the the the issue here is that the um uh the focus only on um zero emissions yeah uh so I would I would replace that with and uh and even well I would just take out the word immediate there um because because immediate is absolutely not going to happen I mean we we even 2050 is is uh I think uh you know there has to be sort of massive technological advances in order to uh yeah the point is that zero emissions is |
| 1:18:18 | not sufficient that's uh large negative emissions is necessary uh that's that's part of it but then as well as large net before large net negative emissions we require much higher Albedo to me yeah yeah so you're saying talk about Albedo in an earlier statement um Robert no a later statement that's that like the issue here is that the current thinking the the issue in in point two is that the current thinking is is um insufficient uh and I would delete the word now and I would instead of is |
| 1:19:02 | now I would say ah greenhouse gas emission reduction and uh even the achievement of zero emissions are are insufficient Net Zero by 2050 is utterly a sick joke sick joke exactly totally yeah yeah is is Thoroughly dangerous needs to be kicked okay that looks good yeah well and then the phrase to say nothing of the economy and the lives of future Generations that's a rhetorical statement that uh I mean while it's well it's fair enough it's I I don't think it's concise enough in this context yeah |
| 1:19:56 | um so like I I would uh yeah kind of dilutes I would delete that Clause okay delete yeah okay so most of the better known and publicized climate interventions uh for example Beck's DAC afforestation scattering powdered lime or Olivine over the oceans all of which have been given persuasive and substantially negative if not definitive critiques by others have either poor prospects by way of scalability cost Effectiveness timeliness resource requirements disruptedness meeting good risk management practice interaction with |
| 1:20:37 | other prospective methods reversibility Equity governability or side effects good and bad this is like Monty Python or are simply likely or not as good as some other methods so sorry for uh sense of it rambly it's rather long isn't it I don't think you like him how can we how can we shorten it yeah it's certainly comprehensive uh Seth you didn't miss anything out yeah or just have have poor prospects full stop I mean what's the purpose of this state where's this um once we've got this |
| 1:21:14 | written what do we plan to do with it because are we because if we want to Define what we think um and just amongst ourselves and make sure we fully understand what we what you know how we see things then a scientific paper you know is is is very good at you know it's very long-winded and it describes exactly but if it's going to be a public statement it needs to be a lot more pithy doesn't it yeah I think this should be a public statement if it gets that far well why wouldn't it get that far that'd |
| 1:21:46 | be up to us wouldn't it yes unless we just sort of lose it lose the will um okay so um prospects have poor prospects full stop yeah and cut out the word either to where is that oh there yeah yeah and I I would say um instead of most of the better known and publicized um I'll just start with many yeah many climate interventions they're usually better to use less words if you possibly can well many proposed proposed and then delete everything after the word prospects all right okay um but I would also delete |
| 1:22:52 | um the uh the words after oceans um and so all of which have been uh down to here yeah uh like I just say I think as a statement of principle um the yeah like what's what's the point like the uh where it go it's it's it's a very provocative statement yeah I think it's wrong because I believe we need every single tool in the Box to be deployed and the more tools we have functioning the better our chances are and the the more robust Solutions become um so but none of those things are policies |
| 1:23:44 | but they all have a small piece to pay so they shouldn't be they can't be relied upon they'll make the point that you know they they they're a small piece of the puzzle um one could say is that they have poor prospects for uh scaling to the required level I mean yeah could people offer for a station deforestation is really important um yeah I think it isn't the point that they're insufficient even though very long you know this nice list of popular ideas and well funded is still insufficient |
| 1:24:30 | because it's still sufficient yes it's to say they've got poor prospects we get into trouble with them they'd say you know yeah yeah annoy them yeah but playing a small part in it but yeah but but even together with amongst themselves taking together still not sufficient yeah yes compare uh and play a part but not uh sufficient yeah so how about that then um as far as the scheduling powder line I mean is it yeah so let's just do that then and say um what was it again I highlighted yeah um so we'll say say so it was our |
| 1:25:17 | insufficient was there something else even taken together and uh scattering powdered lime oil isn't that just called uh enhanced weathering or something or no ocean alcohol alkalinity isn't it it's a broad Church isn't there's a whole load of things yeah but uh right that isn't isn't wouldn't isn't wouldn't that be an umbrella term that covers all these things ocean alkalinity no I don't think so because um okay all right then fine so so happy with this like as it is then |
| 1:25:59 | well well I I just think that the scattering powdered lime or Olivine over the oceans needs to be replaced with something that's a better known uh description so uh as people are saying uh enhanced weathering and uh ocean alkalinity uh but you know there's there's going to be a lot of debate about what the contribution of of all of these Technologies might be and you know like there may be a a place for Dak um integrated with uh with other Technologies we'll take it out all together I don't why why make a |
| 1:26:38 | statement why upset people um just make a point that we're gonna have to we're going to have to deploy every single tool we've got you know we desperately bad place we can do that make it very there's a change of becoming too General I I think why not put in enhanced weathering in place of where you've got scattering okay that's isn't that meant to be soil I wouldn't what about saying uh well-respected climate intervention inventions and don't argue with that and just say well-respected climate |
| 1:27:16 | interventions and for example blah blah blah are insufficient yeah I like that oops EG so then people might they might be a bit more forgiving if we didn't use quite the right thing so if we said ocean alkalinity I I think biochar could be scaled up and I think um which is a well-respected climate intervention yeah no but but that's that's the reason not to include biochar in this list well exactly so so because it's well respected well not well effective no it's not well respected I thought it was yes it is huge it's got a |
| 1:28:01 | huge space for it what we had before instead of well respected there's some yeah agreed Prime I don't like well respected anymore no we don't like just adding biochat to that uh yeah just delete biochar yeah uh and I think the point is that they're insufficient to prevent looming tipping points right that's a good one let's add the word some in front of everything some well respected yeah um some at the start yeah foreign okay good yep okay so the better Albedo enhancements or direct climate cooling methods are |
| 1:29:04 | likely to be amongst the best tourniquet candidates to contain adverse and escalating climate effects until we can reduce excessive levels of greenhouse gases over a longer period by a combination of greenhouse gas removal and emission reduction all such direct cooling methods require further research before approval and deployment however preference to some might or should be given by us after only theoretical consideration Challenge and discussion amongst these noac includes C A to B generated listening okay right I think maybe |
| 1:29:40 | the last paragraph beginning all such is just too verbose all right then yeah so the battery is yeah okay just take that out then and even this list here as well yep okay okay there's nothing about that then uh yep let's go to the next one whilst modest investment in climate adaptation measures and paying for damage to those contributing little to it and I'm sorry while modest investment in climate adaptation measures and paying for damage to those contributing little to it uh oh yes okay it's right it's worthwhile |
| 1:30:31 | and fair most Investments should go towards addressing the causes of climate and ocean stress is not the symptoms right okay she's saying put put all the effort into saving us all rather than preserving a few more people 95 of it into into uh Solutions rather than than you know addressing the symptoms so what should what should I type where then no no just just leave it as such I think believe it as it is okay if not no one else this that that uh creates a uh conflict between uh mitigation and adaptation so uh |
| 1:31:19 | addressing the causes is to mitigate climate change and addressing the symptoms is to adapt and and so uh the uh like the question is um whether they are uh rival goods and uh I think that it's likely that's uh more investment will uh be uh will be needed uh in both and um so uh so suggesting and and at the moment the investment in adaptation is pretty grossly inadequate so uh the um yeah uh there's I I suppose I've Got a Feeling from this that uh that it was uh criticizing um uh investment in adaptation which is |
| 1:32:13 | already um inadequate some people are saying that adaptation um should be equal to uh emissions reduction and SRM and and and uh Albedo enhancement I don't think it is I think it should remain a little brother but the the dominant view is that um Albedo enhancements uh requires no investment other than some scientific research uh with no no field deployment and so um yeah uh whether that I just feel that that this confuses that question about you know where where are they urgent needs for more investment I don't I don't see a |
| 1:33:10 | need for this point really Seth because I think it's a little bit a little bit of a red rag to a bull to these poor people who really are suffering the reason why Albedo enhancement is not happening is because nobody's heard of it you know we haven't said it loud enough you know no one's talking about it it's not because there isn't you know any money they say oh no you can't do that because just they haven't heard of it yet it has been heard of and it it was debated at cop and I found some work on |
| 1:33:41 | it and there's a move towards um a a integration into the emissions trading thing for Albedo change um I was reading up on that stuff earlier on today I'll dig out the link and send it to you that's wonderful news Bruce thank you I'm really glad to hear it there's a there's a there's some climate tracker. |
| 1:34:03 | com um yeah has a lot of really good data on it and they have a good report into cop 29 in this space and it was one of the links on there that was reporting on that I must admit I was much encouraged to the mainly spanish-led group are doing climate tracker and there's some good work there right and is it are they only talking about uh at stratospheric aerosol injection is is do they you know synonym is it synonymous you know they're talking they're talking about a methodologies for um Albedo enhancement |
| 1:34:44 | um and how that could be compensated and calculated brought into the um effectively Earth system accounting meaning all of that system accounting that's what I call it but um I was delighted to see that it was there a big debated okay okay great so so they have heard of it that's this is in line with the European emissions training standards yeah and right so they're bringing that into it as well so that there'd be an actual mechanism uh to induce uh Albedo enhancement you know to have it as an intervention looking at a |
| 1:35:19 | delivery mechanism so so so that so this uh so I can see why we put this in Sev yeah um if people want to take it out take it out yeah yeah it's this okay let's let's be done with that then okay and move on because now we've gone a little bit over time and how much more of this is there let's stop there and okay next time so we've done we've done the first four yeah yeah and and also take it up on Google Docs as Brian suggested okay uh so does do you want to do that save put it up can you put it up on Google |
| 1:36:04 | Docs and just manage the whole process I mean I'm not going to have time to manage this but and it's your your baby as I as I see it so could you do that so do you have access to Google Docs I'll I'll see what I can do well it's uh you you I mean I think you should do it Sev yeah can you send this uh current version out to everyone which we've just uh you know about a bit Yeah and then I'll I'll try and do that uh do you know I I think it's better to send people a link I don't know yeah people know |
| 1:36:43 | they're going to get it don't they the people are getting all right um I'd rather put it on Google Docs be honest and just share it so easy let's just be done with it yeah for a moment this document in Google Docs and sharing with everyone you could put it in Google Docs and share it with everybody I could definitely put it in cool doc if someone shares this um so what so is that you okay with that um Sev yes I I think actually Muhammad with you're so new with us we've only seen you the first time |
| 1:37:17 | um and uh so I'll I'll I can do it I've got a folder it's not please don't take that as a disrespect I want you to see you next time in the time after and every single time from now on and uh and then well I'll have you uh putting things on Google Docs and put it and put other things on Google Docs but we don't want this to get lost if you all I'm saying so please don't take that the wrong way Muhammad and thank you very much for your offer I was just offering yeah which is much |
| 1:37:45 | appreciated um thank you so and I hope to see you next time so I'm I'm going to put this on Google Docs um and it's there for everybody but but so please you know you can manage as your baby so you can send out emails and say do this or do that or I like this or like whatever you want to say I'd like I'd like no act to to manage it well what's Nowak that it's invitations I send out every two it's not an organization Sev it's me sending out invitations every two weeks and putting the recording on YouTube |
| 1:38:18 | that's it so please don't make my workload don't double my workload uh if you want this to happen this is your baby and we all want to take part in it and we all want to so but it can go on on uh on um uh on Google Docs and let's see what happens okay yeah I'm I'm yeah there you go I'm nothing more to say and I appreciate you doing this this is a very good process this is it's not it's there we go nothing more so anything else from anyone else no thanks Clive it's a good session |
| 1:38:56 | great thank you very much thank you everybody yeah likewise I'm ready for baby that okay see you in a couple of weeks yeah well done Mike thanks a lot thank you thank you you too everybody bye |