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| 00:17 | foreign thanks for uh reminding me hi John good evening all right I wonder where you were uh yes yes uh I was fast asleep and I slept through my alarm yeah I was up late last night getting a course ready so I was there we go so sorry about that folks I hope you hope you had a good laugh without me without me right what is your course about um I teach well it's it's a database programming Sev all right yeah uh there we go I don't usually teach that these days I just eat something else but there we go um okay |
| 01:14 | right well um I've kept you waiting 15 minutes has what's been what's happened then as as anything useful happened or have you just kind of said Happy New Year and things like that has has anyone thought about it and uh an agenda well we haven't been able to join the meeting until you started you couldn't even join the meeting no yes we've just been twiddling our thumbs but sorry about that right I had a letter published in the Australian newspaper this morning which I was pleased pleased |
| 01:48 | to get published but it's quite a provocative letter so I I'd be I'll I'll put it in the chat and excellent interested to uh to discuss it yeah okay uh I've been I'd like to hear a bit more about that uh okay so uh let's put up an agenda I thought you could actually join some I'm wrong I thought you could join a meeting uh without the host running the meeting obviously obviously you can't right you may be able to but I think you've got to explicitly set it up okay yeah right |
| 02:31 | so yeah yeah if you've got the waiting room system then you can't join until the host lets you in I don't have the waiting room system I don't click anything to let people in well yeah there's obviously some setup thing that needs to be adjusted then okay yeah yeah right yeah good all right okay so uh Robert let's just put a nice bit of a bit of news there uh Robert City uh letter published so in uh in what uh newspaper was it the Australian I've just put it in the chat as as okay newspaper |
| 03:22 | but uh this is I don't like this so people can see because I've been in discussion um about climate morality and uh so um it's it picks up on that thing okay oh I know all about that uh all right let's see oh itsy um uh has some ideas and things you want to talk about so do you want to put up that uh age and a half document now it's a method of uh of uh seeing whether we can come to our own little no act consensus on what we regard as important right um now I got something I was actually teaching today |
| 04:17 | uh so teaching that course I was getting ready ah so and so did you actually because you you presented something to me that was quite dense two pages and I said it's called tuac towards no act consensus so is it attached here where do I find it I send it to you on an email but when was that then is it that this is not the one that I replied to then um in the last 24 hours was something much more recent than that um toec if I searched for toek when I see it like that no towards norak oh I've sent it to you on the 28th of |
| 05:01 | December okay going way back right so if you've got a day uh on the screen this one here oh there we go okay right so you haven't made it um I really don't think that people in in the meeting today Sev will really want to read something this is actually we should just read the first three if you like but don't do it early in the agenda put it later on okay towards no act so this is um to get some sort of consensus on uh policy as a group think is important yeah so get out so important to communicate yeah |
| 06:01 | okay right there's been a lot thank you Sev um there's been a lot of discussion about DMs I thought it looked very interesting today I haven't had time to fully assimilated all yep did anyone want to discuss DMS for cloud making and Haze um I'm not sure we necessarily want to discuss it without some of the people who've been involved perhaps but um it did seem to me that um Brian Von herzen's original assumptions were clearly mistaken in terms of the evidence that came from Victor Victor Smith checks um uh |
| 06:41 | information on the whole series of points clearly undermined the whole basis of Brian Von herzen's uh assumptions and um outcome of his calculations but I don't I'm not suggesting we go into that in detail but I just think it's it's a point to bear in mind right I see Brian's not here I wonder if I should send out a quick um email to everybody um and just say uh that uh this one here so I'm gonna just send that off again uh yeah uncertainly meeting now in progress uh Clive so all right good |
| 07:45 | so people like Brian may have given us and thought what was going on here okay um good to see you Peter bottoms yeah hi hi and uh um there's somebody who's been emailing me as well uh I don't know how to say her name is it Achim Hoffman currently muted yeah sorry I'm muted I'm currently traveling it's it's okay um would you mind just doing a quick um because what we do is anyone who's kind of news this community those of us you see on screen have been chatting like this on and off some |
| 08:25 | people come sort of every other meeting or now and again when they can for two years ish something like that um and uh so we've been round and round on some issues but we we we've come to a kind of consensus and many of the people here meet up in other groups that are very active actively organized and uh you know contacting the media and other organizations as well very very uh involved um so we all kind of know each other uh so just very briefly if you wouldn't mind sort of 30 or 60 seconds I I can |
| 08:59 | um uh just you started emailing on the CDR group I think yeah give us a give us an intro yeah no problem um yes I found uh one of the groups on online sorry Kim right sorry I was just going to ask live to uh unshare thank you that's fine keep going okay yeah it's I I found one of the uh one of the um discussion groups and on the Google um pages and then then one came to the other and I found out there are three or four of these groups around with all very interesting topics and in the very similar areas and that that's how I |
| 09:38 | joined first meetings and um my my my own interest is that I I've uh recently launched my own climate cooling startup in the UK uh based on just some which is something completely different than has been proposed so far and I've I felt very much alone for for a while and until I found these groups and realizing there are other people who share very similar views that uh cooling is a requirement um um and that's basically my angle than the angle I'm coming from my own background I'm a chemical engineer and |
| 10:12 | trained in Germany uh up to PhD level I'm expert in membrane technology desalination technology water has always been my area of expertise but then I also moved into business I have some business business background and had a first startup and like electrochemistry and um and also worked for the last 10 years in veg capital in launching and supporting University spin outs deep signs spin outs in the UK um but then we also started off in the US and in Australia working with the gate uh University so that that's the |
| 10:45 | high level background I'm now moved on in the beginning of the year from Venture Capital back into my real passion which is my own startup Green Tech startup water related um and that that that's that's why I'm coming with the connectors the cooling cooling excellent that's great that's an excellent intro can I just ask what is your I did see can you just remind me and remember and tell everybody what is on in a nutshell your cooling solution that you that you're proposing it's |
| 11:14 | water cooling water is my my thing how does it work where does it get the energy from what is it what's its basis uh the high level though I can go up to the high level yeah just it's just just from a high level yeah the high level is um and I still I don't want to go too far because I'm still need to have the experimental data don't tell us what we're not supposed to know no no no also I'm I'm also still working on the experimental information on that and verification of that so I don't want to |
| 11:42 | lean out too far but the fundamental idea is it's the auto ionization that's happening in water can be used to um fuel um to support a process that converts low level heat energy to hydrogen so I'm taking water low level heat water out of warm water out of water and then the output will be hiding okay and you have a website don't you um that explains it a little bit what's it called again oh the company oh this one w-o-x-o-n um w-o-x-o-n so that's great thank you right so what uh someone's put it in the |
| 12:23 | chat great or you've put it in the chat right thank you yeah attended one of our planetary restoration actions okay and uh and wrote to me afterwards and and then I I shared it with John and John shed uh akim's email with the group uh just asking uh do we want to just be a talking shop or do we want to uh get investment for the ideas that are being discussed here and I I thought it was a really good point that he made you know there's there is I there's Great Value in uh in just talking uh but uh at the |
| 13:02 | same time you know we're in a failure urgent situation and so so looking at you know practical application of of ideas that are that are discussed and and how to how to achieve that is uh is another just really interesting uh really important points So you you're wanting to um uh suggest so a discussion of it's only what I'm willing to do once you know every two weeks is is sit here and uh is send out invitations to you know anybody who wants to be invited and then sit back and allow people to uh come up with |
| 13:43 | an agenda which I write down and then those people discuss that agenda so I'm and then I moderate um you know and and I'm open to suggestions just like that um so if this group wants to do what you've just said uh Robert so the the as you know the the prag and the H pack and other groups as I just said are very organized and are doing things and making um sort of websites and letters to the to people if if people in this group want to use this time for that because we've done a lot of this and we started |
| 14:20 | actually going round and round over things that we've said before and I noticed a little bit of that it's just which is all nice for me but but if if people want to take it in a different um Direction I'm happy for that to happen as long as all I or all I have to do because I'm juggling as you can see other other things as long as all I have to do is do the invitations moderate uh send out the recording and so forth so um anything else to say about that Robert or any or anyone else because if |
| 14:46 | there's a big chorus of yes yes let's just follow Robert's idea then I'm I'll go with it what I'm saying is I'm not going to control the conversation summarized it in a certain way paraphrase um the way uh I approached his what it was I was just saying I'm new to the group I don't want to scans but it's spam to everybody and asking questions because you've been talking for that was something to the other group but you've been talking I'm sure for a long time and you must have |
| 15:17 | discussed all these I just put all my points in there and I just my my question was uh what what what's what's the purpose of the group are you uh talking Discussion Group are you taking it a little bit further or what are the intentions in the future that was basically my starting point for that that email that I had sent out to understand where everything is and and then I just went into a little commenting on a few things that it's about business and not because that's that's obviously what I've been doing |
| 15:44 | for the last 10 years I've been building businesses and taking action for me it's just understanding what the groups are about so that I know where I can add value and add my comments and how to how to how to position them that was that was the main fine so it's worked wonderfully for me uh to hear a different scientific opinions or to hear what people so for example John listen often says and he keeps saying look time's getting very urgent now um we really need to do something and and John listen says John this is um |
| 16:21 | proposed solution is is uh stratific aerosol injection and you know and so forth um other people will say um that have things to say about that and we talk about clouds we've had Stephen Salter I don't think we see Steven solder today but certainly he's been a regular attendee about um Marine Cloud brightening and it dawned on me gradually and I think other people here that Marine Cloud brightening is potentially Planet saving solution so it's been it's been an education for me it's been a |
| 16:51 | scientific education for me um and then we've had uh sort of activist type people joining us from time to time saying hey wow we didn't know this these sort of ideas existed and they've just sort of come out of people's out of these discussions I'm not saying these are the only only these discussions but I think I get the impression that the opportunity to meet on a regular basis you know every two weeks like this and share ideas to discuss and say well I think every people should know about this idea what |
| 17:23 | do you think because it's a chance for people to air their ideas fans and I have done this as friends and I work closely together France has lots of uh I think very useful ideas and insights and we will say you know this is a potential we think this is a potential solution or this we think this is an important process in the way that the Earth system works what do other people have to say about that um and uh and so Chris Chris Living For example is a has was a government scientist for many years and he has |
| 17:53 | things to say that that are very interesting to us because you can't know everything so who else has something to say about this whole topic about what does this group want to do so I'm I'm saying I'm I see value in it as as it is um uh especially given that there are other groups who are very organized and many people in those other groups so I've spoken long enough now who who would like to who else maybe you Robert do you want to come back on that uh uh um maybe I I I you've put my letter |
| 18:28 | first on the agenda and this second on the agenda so we can turn them around if you like uh what what sorry yeah okay so I've said a lot about that okay um is there anything okay so let's sorry I've been asleep and uh so I've fallen to the Trap of going into something instead of we haven't quite finished the agenda yet I think it's your point Robert what else should go on the agenda and anything else is there anything else anyone would like to have on the agenda for discussion Just for information I |
| 19:04 | put a couple of links to a couple of papers about cooling which I came across recently in the chat I don't think we need to necessarily talk about it but there's people saying that we really need to get on and do cooling uh the Arctic in particular in one thing in case so just people have a look at those articles if they're not familiar with them already um articles in chat yeah Too Close um in chat right thank you right so that's that's kind of been said let's put that at the top and say that's |
| 19:39 | been said um okay anything else John Nissen has added this point cooling credits instead of carbon credits which again has um uh has been uh provocatively uh Advanced by this uh making sunsets uh group in Mexico okay um uh versus carbon credits um so uh so do you want to discuss that John is there anything else else anybody wants to say about calling credits versus carbon credits well let's let's get let's get to it when we get to it on the agenda Claude yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so I'll put that there |
| 20:27 | uh calling questions so you've you've proposed that Robert well uh John mentioned that his microphone is not working so uh but uh it is something that I that I would like to talk so uh so John will only be able to participate I think by chat you're muted John no he's tried on muting you've tried on muting yourself yeah he's he's gone in and out again and his mic's still not working apparently how peculiar and certainly nothing I've done John no no no yeah right uh collaborate for a later |
| 21:01 | meeting I could uh give a rough idea of my uh idea for recovering CO2 from flue gas and natural gas using micro bubbles but that that doesn't make the agenda too long this time is that there are three circulating save a little while ago that's a different one yeah right natural gas from flue gas did you say no no extracting CO2 yeah from either flue gas or from natural gas Wells okay yeah seriously right so what you're saying is uh you'd like to talk that talk to talk to us about that another time |
| 21:48 | yeah okay let's leave that for another time okay anything else because these are we've done this um uh um Okay so we've we've done those two things now not not quite no I know well we started to talk about yeah okay so Atkins introduced himself and so we'll start okay so we'll get so what we have is uh urgency of cooling articles in chat letter published calling credits uh um and and this maybe one more thing for someone anyone let's see what let's let's go here then let's so I can introduced himself let's |
| 22:43 | let's start with this and see what what it um develops into so Robert you're saying that there's a little bit more to say about these these articles from Chris uh well I haven't read them but um I I was uh what I thought was that I would uh uh just talk about my letter first and then if people want I'd prefer to to go to that directly right so I'm going to cross these off now and well let's hear about you with the let's hear about your letter please so uh this uh so it's a very provocative stance that |
| 23:22 | I'm taking because uh I I'm act I've actually said in this letter which um not everyone would have seen but it's in the chat there but I'm I'm saying that the um the idea of um uh decarbonizing the economy is uh scientifically illiterate and morally bankrupt and uh so uh I'm sort of getting out there as uh in a provocative way but then saying that what is needed is action to brighten the planet with uh equal and opposite cooling to balance uh the warming effects and uh so um I'll just |
| 24:06 | put that letter in the chat again for uh for those who've uh who've come late um and uh so Nick cater is quite a conservative columnist in in Australia uh in the Australian newspaper which is the Murdoch uh Empire Flagship in Australia and uh so what we've seen is very polarized debate around climate with um conservatives essentially saying look uh the decarbonizing strategy is crazy it just won't work like you know the the new Australian government has said let's increase our uh decarbonization rate to |
| 24:48 | uh to support the Renewables Energy share to 43 and uh and then many people have been saying that's not physically possible and uh for for a whole range of uh you know very practical reasons about the difficulty of rolling out like for example um uh putting wind and solar farms in remote areas and then uh building uh very large scale uh transmission grids to uh to shift that but my point is that even if we did achieve that 43 just looking at Australia and other countries could could consider these issues as |
| 25:27 | well that still wouldn't actually make any difference to uh global warming it uh certainly in this decade and I suspect not for several decades and what would happen is that we would see tipping points come and the Tipping points especially methane permafrost would just totally swamp all carbon-based climate strategies so that's why I say it's scientifically illiterate and which is a very provocative comment but then to say it's also morally bankrupt is to say a that if we don't address the |
| 26:02 | Tipping points then we're going to have massive impact on biodiversity and on human society and and so these people are saying oh we don't care about that because we've got our ideology which has to produce a revolutionary impossible transformation of the world so we so what we've got is this fantasy mentality essentially a religious mentality that has come to dominate the ipcc and and and dominate much of the world to dominate The Grain movement and uh what I comment in the in the letter I say |
| 26:39 | what is needed is technology to cool the planet the the article that I responded to uh used the example of a hospital a children's hospital in 1939 in a heat wave where um children were dying from the Heat and the Kelvinator company brought in air conditioning and they were able to save the children from um from the Heat Wave and so I'm saying that Technologies such as stratospheric aerosol injection Marine Cloud brightening mirrors for Earth's energy reflectivity and uh directing of the polar ice caps are |
| 27:22 | available planetary technologies that would balance warming with equal and opposite cooling effects but have been obscured from view by the vehemence of green ideology and so the strategy of an immediate focus on brightening now I'm just reading my letter has high level support in the U. |
| 27:40 | S Council on Foreign Relations and I was particularly interested to read through the uh the article that was published earlier this year by the Council on Foreign Relations and I highly recommend it it's it's a superb article and I think uh I think Chris Drew my attention again to it I'd seen it when it came out but as with so much of this stuff we're deluged by writing and it's impossible to read everything and so I'm calling for um that the strategy of an immediate focus on focus on brightening should be led by Australia as a shift from the |
| 28:19 | failed emission reduction ideology then I make a another provocative including comment which is that sustained Prosperity Demands a high carbon future and I've just been following the language about low carbon and um the the argument in the uh the article that I was responding to was that low carbon is anti-human because people like Bill McKibben are saying we have to forget about human happiness and instead uh just uh focus on decarbonization uh despite the poverty and conflict impact that that would have |
| 29:02 | so there we are I I wanted to share this with the discussion group I'll put the uh the letter once again in in the chat and for those coming late I see uh Brian and Stephen and Herb uh have the meeting which is is nice to see yeah but that's great Robert thank you for that uh I'd like to actually do a show of hands now so the first thing you said that you kind of said to me there was there were two main things you said the first thing you said is that uh without some brightening of the planet you know with |
| 29:39 | a change in Albedo an overall be though uh the uh you know just just even if if it's ha if if emissions are reduced or even if uh greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere become reduced a little bit it's still not going to stop tipping points it's still not going to stop catastrophic outcomes um can I have uh can people please say if they it's hands up anyone who first of all disagrees or has someone who has so who let's have a shot do it this way who broadly agrees with that we have a sort of show of hands broadly |
| 30:14 | agrees that I'm not trying to sort of thank you I'm not trying to sort of push people out out so does anyone some people are not on this on the screen um would anybody like does anyone have something to say about that to kind of qualify that and say yes but but there's you know um it's not all bad news or anything at all so well I'd like to qualify at Clive yeah uh just uh by by saying that carbon-based approaches are essential over the long term uh but over the short term they're useless and so so it's |
| 30:47 | quite true that brightening the planet is not a substitute for emission reduction in the long term but it's equally so that um carbon-based approaches are not a substitute for brightening the planet in the short term and that's the important Point friends wanted to comment okay thank you so let me just say I agree with that and I I think everyone here agrees with that um let's see and so friends let's see if you have something else I I give my assigned to all what Robert said with but not uh with this Stratosphere just |
| 31:22 | not the stratus not that method of cooling yeah yes yeah we know this because of the oxidative power of the troposphere is what you've talked about and my view there is that it should be researched but uh I really respect yeah opinion that's okay the opinions of critics yeah right so so that to me is the most important thing that that the the actual science that uh reducing greenhouse gas levels is not is almost certainly not not going to save us um and it needs to be the all pretty much that remains is Albedo modification |
| 32:04 | well it's clouds uh Hey and pretty much clouds and Haze and some people uh Albedo enhancements yeah thank you very much that'll do yeah um now and Albedo enhancement was actually the title of Paul krutson's uh 2006 article that uh that opened the uh the conversation I'm happy with that that that's a good umbrella term um now that then that should be kind of enough if if that is understood by the rest of the World by the ipcc the ipcc to where to accept that then you know we'd be on a sensible |
| 32:44 | path people would say okay I said what can we do and then the the whole debates that we've been having about it should be this way or that way would be taking place instead of which it's not even on the agenda so I you the fact that you're getting articles published Roberts to get it on the agenda it is absolutely you know thank you I've not had any articles published I'd like to get uh it was a lesser sorry it was a letter yeah just a letter so yeah I find that the the censorship is still very strong and |
| 33:12 | so if anybody can help me uh get an article published uh Chris Vivian suggested that I I write to Nature I'm loath to do that because I don't have an academic position and and I I think that um they uh uh apart from I manage the chapel and see at the Anu um so I I do have an email from the Australian National University but it's not an academic position okay yeah okay now I see Brian wants to wants to speak okay uh Brian oh yes it's just off screen yes please Brian did you have something to say Brian your |
| 33:52 | hands up uh we can't hear you right now if you're speaking that's my audio now there we go I can hear you now very good I just had a meeting uh last night with Reuters impact and they're planning they do an annual conference in London and you know they're looking for yeah you're kind of breaking up with funny noises Brian they're looking for that's okay uh coming back it's not working awesome yeah that's working um writers writer's impact as uh reaches around 2 million |
| 34:29 | uh corporations CEOs Executives each year and so we see this as uh you know a good Outreach and I've been working with uh CCRC to get that message out I'm a little confused by some of Robert's wording when he says that decarbonization is scientifically illiterate um I kind of take the University of Cambridge position that we need to reduce emissions we need to remove greenhouse gases and we need to re-brighten the planet that's not probably their position they say repair but I consider rebritton to be the third |
| 35:05 | R uh and so it suggests we might adopt Embrace what they're saying but get a little more specific about repair with respect to rebritening the planet both physically and intellectually okay thank you yep that makes a lot of sense to me uh okay anyone else anything or are we just all just kind of a in a first of all I think we're all very much in agreement uh anyone have anything to say on a scientific basis about I think Brian Brian makes a good point that um to say decarbonizing the economy is scientifically illiterate is uh is |
| 35:44 | something that's uh can be challenged uh I'm uh putting it there as uh like a provocative uh summary of uh the issue that uh decarbonizing can't uh decarbonizing alone uh can't uh protect the climate in time it's a long-term solution go on Brian I I think it's important to agree with the establishment where we can and not be viewed as overly oppositional otherwise we uh run the risk of railing against the Oedipus of the existing giant organizations and you know as Buckminster Fuller admonishes us to uh |
| 36:29 | really change the world we have to do something new and that of course is rebranding the planet but to expend our energy railing against the decarbonization initiative that's already well established uh you know I don't I don't see it really is I mean it's part of a solution it's just a first step uh so when I talked about like writers I just say well we have to get Beyond Net Zero and Beyond Net Zero means removing of course greenhouse gases but re-brightening the planet are going to be essential parts |
| 37:00 | of how we uh keep our our climate healthy uh in decades to come so it's a yes and as opposed to oppositional Framing and I just feel as though we're considered discourse uh it's not I don't feel like it's illiterate to talk about greenhouse gas removal but I think it's not sufficient unnecessary but not sufficient maybe yeah exactly okay Chris yeah um yeah I think Robert did say in his verbal introduction that um that the carbon removal was insufficient in the short term to deal with the problems that we're going to be |
| 37:45 | facing over the next decade or two uh and there that's where the brightening can have its place but he did say that the carbon um removal was going to be a long-term solution so I think we need to be a little bit more precise about what it is we mean and so distinguish the short from the long term for a start which I think is important um and we can say that in the long term yes the carbon removal is important because apart from anything else it's all very well to reduce the temperature of the uh atmosphere through brightening |
| 38:17 | but of course increasing carbon dioxide has its own effects on the environment including the marine environment um irrespective of the temperature so um there's still an issue for CO2 removal so I think yeah look at distinguished shorts from the long term and then I think that you get a bit more clarity about the issues and what's important when okay he did say it was for provocation purposes I know I know and also I I thought about adding uh another sentence along those lines Chris but I simply decided that in view of the audience and |
| 38:52 | in view of the base constraints um in a letter to the editor yeah it's uh muddying that that it it does somewhat muddy the waters now I I completely agree with you of course um but it's uh it's about um uh just opening a conversation and I think on on Brian's point I really don't want to defer to the ipcc and the uh the ideology that's that dominates the like uh I mean of course you know there are powerful forces who who are promoting decarbonisation but actually there are more powerful forces that are opposed |
| 39:33 | opposed to it and and so uh I would like to see uh I would like to open up a conversation with those people who are opposed to decarbonisation and say uh you should still recognize that global warming is a problem like denial is no answer whatsoever denial is just really dumb and um so uh if we can start off with uh brightening the planet then we can have a conversation about well how do carbon-based approaches fit in down on the track but but the idea that we should step back from uh you know a scientific analysis because of the politics of |
| 40:20 | people like for example Greta thundberg who uh I I was just looking at her latest book uh the climate book uh in which in which she has a section on uh on geoengineering uh where she says geoengineering is not an option and and goes on a bit about uh about those issues but yeah I'll pass on to Grant if that's okay yep okay Robert thank you grant congratulations Robert I uh I didn't write the book on communication but the first thing you have to do in introducing an idea is get attention and you certainly did that with your |
| 41:07 | statement uh the opportunity to bring new people into this conversation is so critical to what we want to do which is to call the planet we're sitting we have been sitting here communicating with ourselves and we at all believers yeah but we are needing the non-believers to get in conversation with us to turn our hopes into reality yeah and to get conversation started you have to sometimes use a provocative elements such as you have done and if we want to look around in the field of politics uh how many times have |
| 41:56 | people said well I didn't really mean that but the conversation has started and there is a continuity available from there so I I looked at you I've read your letter quickly and didn't appreciate the whole subtlety of it but I hope you grabbed attention if it requires if it gets just one person coming back and saying you're wrong this you got attention opened a new conversation yeah it's fabulous thank you thank you and we need of course millions of people so one thing that's a bit puzzling for me is given that |
| 42:39 | everyone here I mean okay this is slightly self-selecting audience but everyone's been broad consensus that uh you know brightening the plan is needed Albedo enhancement um the ipcc position on this it does could anyone enlighten me and and perhaps others on how the I has the ipcc got this totally wrong I mean or are they trying have they been trying to say this but their message has been lost what what's what's happening how come the ipcc how come this little group of people is right and the ipcc is apparently wrong |
| 43:15 | where am I getting that wrong no one got anything to say about that yeah I think you've got it right we just don't know the reason well my my analysis of it is in is in terms of uh political science and and that is to say that the uh the movement for decarbonisation of the economy is essentially uh the child of uh former political movements on the left that the the idea of so the so the core idea there is the unity of the left and they say the only way we can achieve the unity of the left is uh through uh a uh |
| 44:02 | a war against fossil fuels and uh the so this idea that shutting down fossil fuels is the uh strategy to address global warming has become quite a dominant ideology and uh and so uh it's uh that's uh that's the problem before the ipcc that it it means that people are not willing to they say that the uh geoengineering planetary brightening uh approaches uh have uh the moral hazard argument is that um it allows uh ongoing emissions and uh so uh uh that's uh so this is what styme is the ipcc then right Robert are you |
| 44:53 | saying this affects the ipcc which is meant to be just a scientific body I don't know why can't they just talk about the science and say you know this is the priority that should be given to this this kind of intervention and CO2 you know mitigation intervention like why do they have to be stymied by a small group of people who've got a religious you know war against fossil fuels seems strange to me there's there's one thing about the ipcc that might be relevant um they're not allowed to use |
| 45:27 | information that hasn't been taken from a peer-reviewed journal you know it takes quite a long time to get a publication through appropriate review of Journal you've got to write the paper then you've got to get it all refereed but you also have to do the work and you have to get the money to do the work and you have to write the uh application to get the grant money and that's pretty unreliable so that the ipcc are acting on is years out of date maybe maybe five six years out of date and until we can get them to |
| 46:06 | take um fresh non-peer-reviewed Journal uh information seriously uh they'll always be this this lagging behind and there's also I think uh a thing that the people who are doing the reviewing for the these referee journals are uh also on the Hostile side uh I I can remember having no difficulty at all about getting Publications everything I wrote was accepted but now I can't get anything published in about about climate uh and perhaps we can um try and find out why the referees are so hostile okay so there's sort of a hostility |
| 46:55 | towards geoengineering which is affecting people like you trying to get papers published and you suspect also the so which which is affecting what's available for the ipcc although there are a couple there are a couple of uh major papers that have been published here for example one by Keith at Al uh saying that uh investment of um I think uh two billion dollars in researching these Technologies would prevent climate damage worth 10 trillion dollars now that's something that should have been taken up by the ipcc then uh |
| 47:30 | another paper I think by McMartin at Al uh saying that if we if we applied stratospheric aerosol injection then we could cut the temperature by two degrees by 2070 and uh so so when people say uh that 1.5 is inevitable uh that's uh they don't reference that much Mountain paper which seems to contradict it and so so there is clearly a political uh agenda I do want to address Brian's comment uh why is why does prosperity why does sustained Prosperity require a high carbon future I would say that uh |
| 48:09 | seaweed technology to uh to convert carbon dioxide into useful Commodities is part of a high carbon future also a slower uh transition away from fossil fuels where where we view cooling Technologies as balancing warming Technologies now it does have the problem of ocean acidification and uh and that's uh but that that's been used politically to say well we can't even talk about these these issues I would prefer to say uh that the high carbon future is inevitable in that's the the power of fossil fuels is so great that |
| 48:51 | the ipcc is not going to shut down uh fossil fuels by uh by 2050 or uh uh and and so so work out okay what do we actually do to stop the Tipping points uh can I I'll pass on to uh yes I'll just say sorry Cape Robert I agree with that I think most people would agree with that yeah sorry Chris yes please yeah I was just going to remind us of what Kyle Kimball said and also Steve Keane particularly about the economics and remember the economist it seems have a very significant influence in the ipcc it is because after all economics is |
| 49:28 | regarded as a science however when you see the um Steve Keane uh webinar you you have to seriously doubt that at least some parts of Economics are scientific at all um and so the economic the economists have an important influence it seems in fact if not even a dominant influence within the ipcc because they effectively downgrade the importance of these changes that we know are coming and in terms of the economics influence uh for the whole of the globe yeah yeah absolutely yeah um and uh Grant you put your hand up |
| 50:04 | again in that same vein as Chris mentioned the uh it is clear to me that the whole argument is dominated by the oecd the and the G20 whose commitment is to maximizing GDP and that is well that may not be a morally uh defensible future for us it is what we're living in with right now and what we are seeking to do is to obtain investment from these same people who control the purse strings the reason the fossil fuel industry is able to to project out its future and into and come to Net Zero is that it is economically beneficial to those |
| 50:58 | politicians who need to stay in power thank you yep yeah thank you yep uh any other comments on that I mean I could keep commenting but what about other people I might just say that I think there's a parallel with the comp conventional medicine the complementary or alternative medicine uh but as Stephen was saying with the ipcc certainly conventional medicine requires you know properly tested peer-reviewed new new pharmaceutical products to come on the market and a lot of the you know the alternative therapies aren't really |
| 51:37 | considered seriously although they do have some benefits I mean I think we're slightly in that category as well I mean but the answer is to get more more articles published I guess that's the simple answer but to do that you've got to get universities involved and you've got to get the funding but that's that's the challenge yeah well I take the view that getting publication in media is going to be more important than getting publication in scientific peer-reviewed journals because as |
| 52:04 | Stephen has commented the the peer review process has been corrupted it's certainly a faster track role yes yeah and and things like writing to the minister for Education here and you know trying to get Marine Cloud brightening and Micronesia to to mitigate their Cyclones and and the sort of thing in in Florida as well writing to the Press there I mean these sort of things should should double to the surface eventually yeah it's it's as if the the there's these opposing forces and so it's just kind of |
| 52:38 | collapse it's just going nowhere um and the everything I read and everything like it makes any sense to me says that the human human civilization is absolutely depends on on high energy that's not going to stop any time ever I don't think um this the quest is where the energy has to come from carbon anything there's a long thing about that but it's it's the oil industry and and I it makes perfect sense to me expects to be very much in business in many decades from now um I don't have a particular problem |
| 53:22 | with that if not the world exactly sorry I'm reading back loves Mills book How The World works and so he uh takes that argument now he's uh vehemently attacked by the carbon uh people promoting decarbonization but uh I think your point Clive of of opposing forces is correct that it's denial versus decarbonization and uh but uh we're bringing in brightening the planet as a circuit breaker yeah yeah that's right so I think it's helpful to find these little these little terms that can mean |
| 53:58 | something to someone that is moves away from the general from the from the sort of central argument that's going nowhere this static argument herb please yeah two things first I think we're all familiar with the uh recent pre-print by James Hansen and his colleagues where he endorses SRM in my Twitter work and elsewhere now I'm just starting to routinely circulate that so it's not herb Simmons or someone like that promoting SRM but Jim Hansen and and you know I think that's I mean not that he's God but he's |
| 54:32 | you know it's hard to argue against Jim and you know in fact I I wrote to Bill McKibben a couple days ago uh the primary reason thank you Doug I don't know if you're still on Doug uh is to get an endorsement from my book but the secondarily I said look Phil you were influenced by Jim to create 350.org and name it 350. |
| 54:57 | org because of Jim's specific recommendation that that's the level that you know we need to get below to have a thriving civilization and now Jim is supporting SRM so that would be the next step if you believe Jim or accepted what he said there except him here so that's my first point secondly I just want to say that I think we can't forget and I'm not suggesting that anybody here does the real downsides of fossil fuels um you know beyond climate you know that the estimated 10 million people killed from air pollution that's largely not |
| 55:34 | entirely generated by fossil fuels in the hundreds of millions of us if anybody looked at our lungs and any of us who lived in cities number two the conflict that it generates by you know so many of the wars we fight are over fossil fuels um and you know Renewables have the opportunity obviously to be much more decentralized and the third is the corruption of governments who are who get their revenue some fossil fuels not everyone but many of them so I think there's some extraordinary reasons Beyond climate that fossil fuels really |
| 56:10 | need to be phased out as rapidly you know relative to you know everything else that needs to be done there's no magic formula for how quickly but I just I'm always reluctant to to be um perceived as somebody who who is indifferent to whether fossil fuels remain or not as long as we get cooling or other techniques okay yeah okay herb fine okay um anyone else anything Chris yes please yep I was actually gonna say something similar to what herb said uh although I've just put in the chat now a link to |
| 56:49 | a book by Holly Jean Buck which says it's titled ending fossil fuels where Net Zero is not enough she addresses all those issues that herb mentioned and more the whole series of issues around fossil fuels is not just simply a climate related issue there's massive issues around corruption and all the other things that herb addressed and that I would encourage you to read that book because I think it is quite uh Illuminating ending fossil fuels what was that the link in the in the chat is already there |
| 57:18 | all right link to Amazon UK I'm trying to find it elsewhere as well if you want to right it's not a very long book but it's uh fairly dense but very interesting okay um thanks um while we're on the subject of other materials does anybody look at um Peter zeihan so there's a book from Peter Zion called the end of the world is just the beginning and he various videos he makes it very very clear that Renewables are a great idea in some places um but a bad idea in most places because they simply the wind isn't strong enough |
| 57:57 | and the sun isn't strong enough so the North Sea is good Texas is good for wind um Germany most of Germany isn't because there's not enough wind um he also did a video very very accessible recently um saying that EVS um are essentially carbon bombs uh they're not going to happen anyway because a lot of the raw materials come well used to come from Russia um so I I I'll I'll look that up and put that in the chat as well so I highly recommend Peter zihan uh I mean it's true that different Renewables will suit |
| 58:32 | all for different places but there's a variety of Renewables there's a lot more than just wind power after all yeah yeah I've only I only want to say something quick but in principle yes I mean it's got to be the right thing in the right place yes yeah yeah so of course yes you can use Renewables to make synthetic liquid fuels yeah then you can transport them as easily as you can transport oil and gas yeah and you can transport our power from Renewables uh a third of the way around the world using high voltage |
| 59:04 | recurrent lines yeah yes send our power up to Singapore yeah there's a proposal in the UK to for a high voltage line from I think Morocco to the UK uh to pick up on a solar pair potentially in massive Fields there whether it'll happen or not it's another matter but there's the ideas out there yeah yeah Peter Zion talks about uh high voltage power and a whole lot of stuff he knows his stuff basically well and also from Iceland as well but of course Iceland um it's a rather different source of Renewables it's either |
| 59:37 | geothermal or hydroelectric yeah so we have a lot of discussions about these very nice things but the bottom line is uh the burning of oil and gas is not going to go away in the next few decades it's simply not going to happen so people can jump up and down about it as much as they like um and say oh no don't do dual engineering because it's that means that they're not going to stop they're not going to stop one way or the other either way it's not going to stop in the next few days we can jump we can say it |
| 1:00:06 | needs to we agree that and I think those people will say yes our business does need to stop but look there isn't anything else anywhere on the horizon so we're going to be in business people in developing countries and in developed countries look what happened in Iraq war Joe Biden was looking for cheap oil I mean this it's UNS it's Unstoppable in its current form and we recognize that so there needs to be a Albedo enhancement unless some miracle comes along which which I think we're not really expecting yeah uh there |
| 1:00:37 | are these miraculous things and they need to be worked on of course and that's where the energy should be going okay anything else on this subject because it's been a good discussion um thank you Robert for that okay calling credits uh versus carbon credits so John are you it looks as though you're unmuted perhaps we can he no we can't hear you that's terrible tragic so Robert can you speak for uh John yeah sure uh so the the question is that um Government funding uh for uh climate purposes should be targeted to the most |
| 1:01:24 | efficient way to prevent dangerous warming and uh and so what that means is that actions that will um achieve that goal uh we are primarily brightening the planet through Albedo enhancement and uh and so uh that means that uh when you're looking at if your purpose is just climate change now there are these other purposes that have been mentioned about why fossil fuels are a bad thing and it's quite reasonable to for government funding to to see those as public goods but governments shouldn't lie you know they shouldn't |
| 1:02:05 | pretend like for example the Australian government says that switching our car Fleet to Electric will help uh keep uh help prevent uh global warming going above 1.5 degrees and uh that's it's really quite absurd but you know that's uh generally accepted as uh as a statement of a fact so if there's a shift to cooling credits that that's I prefer uh I use the term a radiative forcing credits as a more technical idea that it should be possible to analyze what the impact of an action on radiative forcing is in in |
| 1:02:47 | what's per square meter and uh and that government subsidies which are which have the purpose of of preventing global warming should be uh primarily uh measured on that basis now um yay Tau that's uh Mia has argued for uh cooling return on investment as as a concept and his argument is that carbon-based approaches have very low cooling return on investment and and I think uh he's he makes a very sound uh argument and that's that's been quite influential for my thinking on radiative forcing credits and cooling credits now |
| 1:03:28 | I see that making sunsets this provocative startup out of California uh sending uh helium and sulfur balloons up into the stratosphere has has been able to get companies to buy cooling credits from them them based on and and they've come in for uh really EX very strong criticism and you know I think uh a lot of the criticism is quite reasonable uh but at the same time it's uh I think introducing this concept of cooling credits is uh is quite helpful and uh and so uh if so for example if the aviation industry was able to say uh |
| 1:04:20 | where uh you know we can't see uh going electric as as a viable method for planes so we're going to kick in some money to refreeze the Arctic and uh that's going to be the most efficient way to offset our emissions uh it raises this question does refreezing the Arctic offset emissions now I I would say the answer is yes in terms of uh cooling as uh the objective of Net Zero heating replacing the objective of net zero emissions and saying as I I said in my led up that's equal and opposite cooling |
| 1:04:59 | forcing should be a Target to sustain uh policy and conditions of of sea level and biodiversity and so on so I would say that this concept of cooling credits is uh is quite an essential uh thing for the economic Community to start to to discuss as a as a superior way of providing incentive to prevent global warming okay thank you now other is it is this said in any books that any of these books that have been mentioned does anyone cool so cooling credits you're suggesting cooling crates has anyone else has has any other prominent or has |
| 1:05:43 | any prominent person was it is it available in in books anymore is this just from you is this from John Nissen calling credits I've seen I have seen objections to it because of the difficulty of measuring reliably a way to spec to give out government money I think the only way that's easily done would be to be measuring sea surface temperatures in the regions where you are likely to get hurricanes and you could do a deal with the the governments of the countries around let's say the Gulf of Mexico to get a pattern of sea |
| 1:06:18 | surface temperatures that they would like to have which are lower than the ones that we've actually got now but measuring is not is not going to be easy but until you've got something really uh clearly understood like that way I would prefer to do this exactly well no you can you can do a very rough measurement because there are going to be uh unknown factors and so what I would prefer is that albedo-based approaches just be chopped in half just say we'll do a calculation of what we expect the impact would be and we'll |
| 1:06:57 | chop that in half and for carbon based ones we'll do the calculation and we'll double it and that will still that will still mean that there would be no basis for any carbon based because really we're talking about an order of magnitude uh difference and and so so these issues about the difficulty of calculation uh are really a distraction because when you've got several order of magnitudes possibly uh difference in reflective forcing a radiated forcing impact then uh being just being very generous |
| 1:07:34 | and and saying uh okay we'll only uh take a credit for uh a quarter of of what we calculate we do uh we'll still um provide a justification initially you've got two cooling companies working in the same district same area and one of them saying that they should be paid more than the the other it it is as soon as you get commercial competition going on you've got a terrible terribly difficult problem well this is why all of this stuff needs to be uh well governed by an international organization and uh so it |
| 1:08:11 | like the world had the width to set up the Bretton Woods institutions and I I would say that brightening the planet needs to be established uh on a similar uh governance basis uh and I I think that it's it should not be uh run at a national basis or just a commercial basis but there but that there should be a uh a management system like the international monetary fund that's uh that is able to uh to calculate and regulate these issues mm-hmm yeah okay um all right uh one thing that um bothers me about all this is these |
| 1:08:53 | many people don't have they don't have much knowledge they don't have much time uh they don't know who to trust who to believe um but they do have a vote and as soon as something like SRM so you mentioned that Sarah this is um from youth herb saying SRM so that kind of gave me a little bit of a kick uh because people equate SRM with stratospheric aerosol injection and and which is supposed to be bad we're not sure it is if it is bad as we know people think different things um so uh to what extent does anyone think |
| 1:09:30 | that cooling credits is just going to be taken as oh no that means they want to do that bad thing that that they people don't us don't uh appreciate that there are several things refreezing the Arctic Cloud brightening making Haze as well as in the stratosphere as well any comments on that yeah yeah so SRM is like sorry our Kim was going to speak I can think I can go ahead I think calling credits in my personal view are the key to unlock all this because suddenly you're talking the money language that all of those |
| 1:10:10 | keys and key stakeholders actually are talking that that's your connection here um and I think all the other issues we I heard so far they can be overcome um does it have to be an international organization to govern this well at the moment how are carbon credits governed they're actually governed by private institutions that's the uh the gold standards of this world and so on so there will be and why why do I like this idea is as soon as you mention something that credits I.E money related you will |
| 1:10:44 | have a lot of attention because there's a lot of people smelling business opportunities and that will attract um Everybody rather than more of the moral Community um and that's I mean I've been in cleantech since the early 90s and the first lesson I learned if it doesn't make money it's not going to happen and I still stand by this and for it works for the carbon credit side and for my when I looked at my own work the cooling of the oceans uh the Water I looked How can I create a revenue stream yes I |
| 1:11:18 | found one way but my ultimate initially I found a different way to do it by carbon credits but I had I know I had to find I have to find a link to cooling how can I get something like what you call cooling credits um out of my work but I know this will be a longer way and I'm trying to find a path through the carb credits there is a direct correlation between carbon credits and then putting credits at least in my world but I can say water goes into my big rig at that temperature it comes out at that that gives me clear |
| 1:11:47 | measurements of how much energy I've taken out so I can do that I'm not that familiar with with you all your work that's basically happening above above the sea level surfaces so I can't comment on that how difficult that will be but I'm that's that's I would have put some focus on finding out how can we make this and start discussions potentially with companies like Vera and our gold standard who are making their business and their money by providing standardized systems and they might be |
| 1:12:16 | interested in actually looking into this as a potential future for future Revenue stream for them I'm just I'm an xpc so I'm always looking to where's the money coming from where is it going and I believe in the power of money and I know that's not everybody's view here but that that that's how I get things done um and it we don't have much time writing papers I is important needs to be done in parallel as well but if you want to get something done quickly um you you show people where the money |
| 1:12:46 | is and how they can make money out of it and drive it forward that also means in my view by the way to involve big corporates and uh even potentially the big enemy that's out there where's the big big pockets and uh um bring them in into this discussion it's just from my goal is I I'm not a political person whatsoever I only have one goal I want to I want to cool things down I want to make make this world habitable uh make make sure my kids and my grandkids but I'm sure we all the same in the same same position here who |
| 1:13:15 | attends the world so yeah um yeah I think you did I think you certainly spoke for me there uh Akim um yeah without money money makes the world go round it's I sometimes say to people it's people say oh no no money's evil you know it makes bad things happen money it's not money that's evil it's the Love of Money That's supposed to be the root of all evil not money itself money is a store of value and uh it determines what happens but you know some people say no no I'm not going to |
| 1:13:46 | spend it on that you know I'm not going to spend my money on that I'm going to spend it on that and so it determines the decisions people make and then as you say sometimes what happens and I think the challenge is to uh um engage with um corporate world who are able to commercialize uh these issues uh I do think at the same time you know the scientific Community the academic Community has to be respected in terms of having a a review function but uh the the primary driver I think has to be the uh the corporate world and uh I uh I |
| 1:14:31 | think that the fossil fuel industry or to uh or to like I've been uh you know disappointed to see uh David Keith say you know he won't take any money from uh fossil fuel Industries like that seems to me to to confuse the um the agenda there because uh like it's it's true that they have a great power to corrupt uh the the process through uh through conflicts of interest but at the same time you know I think that they're the only ones who are going to have the the resources and the and the contacts |
| 1:15:08 | and uh and the people uh to uh to physically Implement uh a lot of cooling Technologies in in what some of our discussion has called a grand bargain that it's um you know pay for um pay to brighten the planet in exchange for uh a slower um uh trajectory towards uh decarbonization yeah um again I'd like to do a show of hands so who agrees with Robert that fossil fuel money is is it's not a bad idea it's a it's quite a good idea to involve the fossil fuel industry to fund things like brightening |
| 1:15:51 | Albedo enhancements so I'll put my hand up uh I could put my hands on a half up but um I'm yeah I'm a bit like Chris like it may be could be could be a bad idea it could send the wrong message but on the other hand it's practical it's honest it's it's money to do the thing that needs to be done so quite a lot of hands going up there but not all hands notes in my notes you didn't put your hand up there um you put it down again okay oh sorry yeah no no fine no no fine um a lot will depend on how you do it |
| 1:16:22 | because of the issues that we've talked about with the fossil fuel industry and also if you look at the experience with carbon uh offsets and things there's a lot of spurious stuff that can happen if you don't have a reasonably regulated system yeah okay I absolutely and and this this is where uh the uh it's so much better because you know I look at I what got me into climate change was the red program which is reducing emissions from deforestation and Forest degradation and it was it was just com like it was this idea you know |
| 1:16:57 | we'll pay a poor community in Indonesia not to top their Forest down uh for 10 years and then in 10 years time they'll either chop it down or it'll burn and uh you know the sustainability of that uh of those carbon credits through forestry is extremely weak whereas if you take something like methane removal from Iron sold aerosol all once you've calculated it if you say we're going to take a 50 carbon credit or cooling credit sorry um for uh for Isa then uh it's uh it's something that you can measure much |
| 1:17:34 | better especially if there's a methane effect and so if if you can calculate that we're going to physically remove so much methane from the atmosphere then then that's that's a very direct cooling credit so uh it's I I think that the uh that the potential for a transparent and accountable uh governance Arrangement is much higher for cooling credits than for carbon okay thank you uh any comments on that any general comments on that um already made a comment in the chat uh about uh the uh the need for caution |
| 1:18:18 | and uh so after industry is this the last comment from Ron yes you have to put your yes have you worked with fossil Fiona but needs to be done with caution okay yeah yeah I agree uh what you don't want is a system that incentivizes lots of emissions so they can then claim credits removing it because it just makes more movements in the world that which is probably gonna you know anything that happened I think there needs to be less into less Interruption less disturbance so if if people have paid money to just |
| 1:18:54 | do more disturbance put something in and then take it out again I mean this is obviously a bad idea as well so there needs to be incentives uh to just solve solve the problem in the most efficient way that causes least disturbance and so that's I guess how I'd put it so yes definitely caution yeah yeah okay um now we normally you'd expect to go from uh this would be the end time but we did start 15 minutes late and that was uh that's definitely down to me so I've already apologized for that but we |
| 1:19:28 | can go on for another 15 minutes does anybody um does anyone need to leave now maybe you have other things to do I propose to go on another 15 minutes basically um okay so another 15 minutes yep I I think actually it'd be better if we if you were to send out that document with the next invitation and start a new then so you've kind of changed your mind a little bit about uh talking about yourself it needs more than a quarter of an hour yeah so okay so yes you can read it and then think if it's a good idea or not can you just say a |
| 1:20:04 | little little bit about this uh okay okay I'll I'll say a little bit about it but we won't get into the thing fine it's yeah I would like to see our group being a little bit more activist and to do that we need to see what we agree on I think we agreed on quite a lot of things as today's session has said my uh my mid my Costco Hearing I thought it was Tuesday run your we need to mute you yeah go ahead please sir um so what I've suggested is that um we look at a several statements and see whether we |
| 1:20:45 | broadly agree on them and those that we don't we we put aside and see whether we can get a sort of collective strategy coming out of that which we could maybe put out in a press release or a some kind of a paper or or emails to uh decision makers and I think there's a good chance that we will have that yeah how would that be different from is it the prag or the hpac group but what they're doing because I tend to agree with everything it may not be all that much different but I think that this group has got some differences from both |
| 1:21:24 | Prego and hpac which might be useful and we might be able to focus better what what can you say briefly what those differences are as you see that'll need to arise out of what we agree is is important okay so when we decide what's what what's important we then say okay how does this vary from the other groups because very a bit then we can go with it okay we're also focused on the ocean of course which the other groups aren't yes yes yeah well it's atmospheric and ocean atmosphere and ocean yeah |
| 1:22:03 | okay so that's the one that's thank you because I was wondering what are the differences and you've said okay atmosphere and ocean and and this is It's time it's titled nature based there's a few questions around that as well um is there any I don't think there's a corporations there's a very creative group too Clive I mean when you look around there's some some wonderful inventions there was service inventions and and Brian's and all of us we've all got some really and and Robert you know |
| 1:22:30 | we've got some great inventions amongst us and it would be a a dying shame if if some of those didn't get off the ground and and get it get it implemented in in in the field so um uh France has got all sorts of things it comes up with ideas all the time so create creativity amongst the group I think it's a very strong differentiator that should be should be maximized and should be got out there in some way okay so now is it I can't remember who it is I think it's hpac is it hpac that got that list from from us all so it had |
| 1:23:04 | uh yatal it's got uh Leslie Fields um a lot of our stuff is in there as as well as well and um and you edited Robert tulip edited that that list so how would something this group does be different from that list and and that's it'll evolve we'll see whether it is different yeah but do we want to duplicate that effort well we can discuss that next time discuss that next time as well yeah okay I do think though that the uh the hpac website um is uh offers the opportunity for um publishing documents uh so like for |
| 1:23:48 | example sebs um uh document that he's just shared with you Global I haven't seen it yet um it would be possible for uh hpac to uh to put that up on the website and uh as you've said Clive you know you've uh just uh convening these meetings is um is a significant contribution from you and you don't want to be running a website but uh like if um if there was that potential for collaboration with uh with hpac uh perhaps less so with uh with Prague but uh you know any documents that that people want to uh |
| 1:24:29 | put up as as discussion documents uh hpac just recently circulated a an offer to to host those documents and so I think that that's something that's uh um not having read but I assume service document would be quite suitable for that okay okay then thank you yeah so so you're offering to host that document I'll read this document now so I didn't forgive me uh confess that I haven't haven't read it um and I suppose my concern would be we don't want to dilute efforts we don't |
| 1:25:06 | want to I I wouldn't want to style me or in any way negatively affect the efforts of of other groups and and sort of be just like the Monty Python you know as we've said this before the Judean People's Front um opposing in some way or or kind of you know taking from the effect of these other groups so we want to be more than some of our parts not less basically um and this is a discussion group where we can generate ideas so okay um I'll send that that your document out save to everybody um and then we can see what happens from |
| 1:25:40 | emails between now and and two weeks from now and we can discuss it next time okay people should certainly feel free to to add statements to that this is not a complete list so if if they come back with you know three or four extra statements that'd be great right yeah okay one thing okay thank you one thing that crosses my mind and and it's even been mentioned as well is uh videos so put putting together a video of the the things we've been saying here in a presentable form I think most members of |
| 1:26:16 | the public so finding these videos as with agree they're unlisted so the public can't see them unless they've got the link um but and and it wouldn't be suitable anyway because people want to see a proper you know um how do you say a presentation is being impressionally edited and so forth that's right um presentation but I think we have enough things to say that could be done in that way bit like yours Robert where you talked about the changing the priorities showing the Tipping points that was an excellent video |
| 1:26:50 | um but I don't hear it talked about so things have to be um other than in our little circle um uh things have to be kind of promoted and there are whole there's a whole bunch of things that that you people can do to make videos that go but more viral you know it's got to be there's a whole load of rules what there's any comments about that or anybody that would have some time to take clips from some of these uh or or anybody would be willing to spend some some time making a statement that could that was would that |
| 1:27:23 | would end up being on a video any comments like that at all well this this my mind of the document may be the beginning of such a statement okay so okay all right thank you okay that makes sense to me wouldn't it wouldn't it be great we've got some younger people involved who were happy to engage and um and just uh who've got skills in um social media and so on um to uh to help uh uh get the message that we've been discussing out to a broader audience like you know I find it extraordinary that there's a so little interest in in |
| 1:28:09 | these sorts of conversations and particularly to a younger audience yep and that may be because we're on the different media to what they are they're on Tick-Tock and all those other things but but also that they've been broadly convinced that uh emission reduction is the uh is the only path and uh and so uh there's quite a shock element in the content of what we're talking about and uh so uh many people I know you know simply uh dismiss margu is out of hand and uh so uh but it's but people are |
| 1:28:49 | still willing to uh you know they they claim to be rational and scientific and so they have to give you the time of day and once they've done that then I think that there's the possible possibility of of changing people's opinions mm-hmm right and Grant please yeah I was cleaning up my unread emails from some weeks and came across the announcement of the Peter farkowski's group the foundations uh about to be released documentary titled back to our future have any of you had a look at that clip no I haven't come across it yet |
| 1:29:37 | I will uh circulate it the the oak this is a professionally produced documentary suggesting that there is a future for younger people my motivation one of my primary motivations in getting engaged in climate restoration was to be able to deliver a positive optimistic message to my grandchildren that they are working into a world that is worth living in and I have been sadly disappointed over 10 years of finding that message and in this particular documentary I saw that I can maybe give up my vision my dream this documentary could provide |
| 1:30:29 | that trigger well I find it very disappointing grant that Peter fikowski is totally opposed to any action to brighten the planet uh so you know it's it just creates a uh a bit of a whereas so yes be opposed but listen to the message he is he's not promoting this this is a professional documentary maker and yes the focus of the foundations Peter's work is in there I don't doubt that's that's true the opening statement from this documentary is we cannot predict our future but we can create it |
| 1:31:15 | foreign [Music] hold of I would suggest you find this it's on YouTube back to our future and it's an eight-minute clip it was shown at uh cop 27 which was one of the reasons I ignored it yeah it's going to be a one hour long documentary made by a professional I think it's going to be able to change the messaging and something that we could learn from as well so thank you yeah I think I did see some sort of trailer of that back to our future on one of their meetings because we take part in some of Peter's meetings |
| 1:32:02 | um copped seven cop 27 trailer so there's a trailer here um which I could um which I could share uh there it is so I think you probably can't hear it so I'm gonna have to share again if I run it back the whole thing is we're nearly time to finish there so it's quite the only way to predict our future on this planet our only planet is to create it but to avoid repeating the actions that got us to this point we have to understand and acknowledge our past so I I I'll stop it there um oops yeah to stop it for myself as well |
| 1:32:55 | um and uh but I can well you could I just found it immediately so so I put it to any who needs it in the chat yeah that would help okay I also noticed uh herb has mentioned the hpac um working papers policy um in the chat uh herb do you want to speak to that uh yes it's it's really very simple we want to encourage uh folks to prepare or to send this working papers that you have prepared and our only criteria that a would be professionally done however that's defined and B it'd be broadly consistent with the hpac policy but our |
| 1:33:37 | goal from the steering circle is not to be you know to reach consensus or to uh you know uh edit it or whatever and we want to encourage you know you all like you know whether it's sevs paper or Robert tulipis suggested a paper you you did some time ago um and and uh Robert Chris has uh we'd love to be able to populate the website and ultimately of course distribute those so uh just get in touch with me or Robert tulip or any of us uh Ron Etc Brian and we'll be happy to work with you on that okay so you're saying send us your stuff |
| 1:34:16 | and we'll consider putting on the website yeah you're thinking of writing something contact us and we'll discuss it and see if it you know it would you know if it would fit uh you know in terms of our you know we just don't want anything that contradicts our principles yeah but we don't we don't want to be micro critic be micro critical it's like the you know it's like the the um foundation for not the foundation for the council for on Foreign Relations published uh that essay on a sunlight |
| 1:34:48 | reflection and they said this does not necessarily represent the views of the Council of Foreign Relations but it's close enough that we're you know we're sort of giving it our imprimatur that's basically in our sort of intent great yeah makes perfect sense thank you for that okay any last comments it's uh we've had our 90 minutes now any last comments okay so great to meet you Akin um I hope to see you again in the future and uh and see everybody again in a couple of weeks uh okay hopefully on |
| 1:35:25 | time next time see you see you all again soon and thanks and I'll send out the recording as usual thanks bye-bye okay did anyone want to have a private chat before you finish Sev nope yeah see you soon |