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| 00:02 | foreign hi John [Music] I have a request to make this evening I'm I'm under the kai Bush rather and uh so I'm just wondering if someone here would mind hosting for me this evening so I can disappear ever it feels like doing that I'm hoping Robert tulip is going to turn because he quite likes doing that |
| 01:07 | but if he doesn't um is there someone here who who fancies being the host no I can do it for you if you like well that's fine thank you very much John okay do you need to hit off straight away uh I'll be here for a little while for maybe 10 minutes or so well as long as as long as it takes for kind of people to turn up and yeah I I could just I mean if let's just do a Handover so do you know how to share the screen don't you and and sort of do a um a word agenda and uh you've seen it done many times you know will you record |
| 01:51 | a Clive yeah I'll keep recording it and um I'll pop along and at the end so I'll come along after an hour and a half because that's usually the sort of ending time isn't it um and maybe join in at the end uh but um close it off and do the usual you know I'll post it up to YouTube I've hardly left this seat all day uh yes um so yeah so many issues we've got on the agenda too we could we could carry over till next Community if you like you don't have to wait for me for that no I |
| 02:32 | I wasn't going to suggest that John I mean if people want to talk about things go ahead that's fine okay yeah um so you've got to make sure I give you the ability to share yeah too right hi Robert I was just um asking if somebody would like to host but John's um volunteered now because I I'm under the kai Bosh today just today it won't be I'm not going to make a habit of it I promise um so okay let's make sure that you can share your screen John and um bring up an agenda hi Ernie hello unfortunately today um hi |
| 03:22 | I'm I'm under I keep saying that's it this to everybody I'm I've got a lot to do uh by the end of the this evening night early and uh so I've asked if someone else would Host this evening and John's uh um kindly agreed to host a meeting so you're trying to share your screen John and uh yeah so I'm only just putting on an iPad at the moment so okay well good um that's looking good right we've got to just bring up word yeah actually I normally just do it in uh or something Pages yeah some sort of |
| 04:12 | thing that people can see well John if you are you happy to uh can you can do it with the typing actually it's a bit awkward I've got I haven't got a keyboard though so maybe yeah what I'll I'll do it John if you like okay yeah okay thanks thank you yeah I'm just just I'll bring up a an agenda okay okay thank you very much Robert okay that's good um I'm gonna just come along after an hour and a half and uh if if you're still going I'll join in um but basically I'll end it properly so it |
| 04:50 | records and then I can do the usual upload to Youtube and everything okay so is this working for people yeah then if you if you could um send me the just just email the agenda file uh Robert if you don't mind at the end that's fine so I can just put that in the YouTube description okay good okay thank you very much everybody um all right we'll we'll see you again uh in two weeks time if not before yeah yeah it'll yeah probably in two weeks time um now I just uh want to give you a slight warning my computer |
| 05:30 | uh today it's about about once a day it it reboots uh and I don't know why it does it just suddenly just reboots and whatever I'm doing I just lose and so um I'll if that happens I hope to God it doesn't happen in the meeting but if it does um well friends has got my phone number France can you or anyone that's got my phone number please phone me okay and I'll research um but just let's just fingers crossed this this PC doesn't do that okay I'll leave you all to it apologies and see you in a couple of |
| 06:02 | weeks I'll see you at the end thank you very much all right so I'll I'll just invite uh items for the agenda then um I've got one but I'll just wait to see if anybody else has got some something first see we've got uh Chris here I'd like to discuss his uh latest paper the gazab report I think it's very very thorough appraisal um are you happy to talk talk a little about that Chris sorry I didn't quite catch that did you say your latest your latest paper the gazab report um |
| 06:36 | reports not new 2019. ah yes I haven't seen the date on it but you're involved with this right yeah I'm sure we talked about what you might want to talk about is the press release that was put out by IMO where about the decisions of the London convention and protocol last week okay week before last week for us okay all right good let's let's have that on the agenda uh anything else um some of you may have seen the reports on the BBC news about this proposal for the big seaweed Farm in the South |
| 07:14 | Atlantic the sea Fields Brian knows about it I know um well it's just Victor was here with us sorry it would be great if Victor check was was here to join yeah sure um it's just it's obviously received quite a bit of publicity I don't know if it's worth talking a lot about it but it might be worth at least to mentioning it I'd like to give a little p in to uh to Des Tycho desmium which is the uh the cyanobacteria which produces nitrate fertilizer in the ocean it ties in well with I guess some farming |
| 07:55 | t-r-i-c-h-o tricho okay thanks Sev um I'd like to raise um the uh the cost comparison between brightening the planets and cutting emissions that'll be a large number I suspect well my my uh rough estimate is one to ten thousand yeah uh so I'd I'd like to uh uh to raise that as an issue uh anything else anyone going to uh cop 27 has got anything to say about it oh um there's a possibility I might be involved with one thing but it might be |
| 08:58 | remote rather than present but I don't know yet talked to do with the ocean Pavilion I've been involved with the concert but that's that's a bit more superficial than the actual conference is Brian going to be involved yes yes he's been involved with the concert as well but I'm not sure with the whether he's more directly involved if you've joined us to be interesting to ask him you know Brian's here uh okay is is that enough for us to go along with for now and we'll if if |
| 09:36 | people think of anything else we can revise the agenda so um can I uh uh stop the share and um and just see if the uh IMO press release uh which Chris has just kindly placed to the uh into the chat um and yeah Marine geoengineering techniques potential impacts so from the 10th of October and it references the because I thought now John you suggested putting this onto the agenda and uh and Chris's um knowledgeable about it but uh what what did you want to say about it it came up on my um there's an email the |
| 10:40 | other day about the gazab report and appreciate it's an old report but it's still very relevant uh but if that morphs into the latest IMO press release that it would be interesting to hear a little about that I I haven't come across that separately okay yeah I can say something if you want thanks Chris um yeah the meeting um had Ranger engineering as one of its gender items week before last and they had a report from a correspondence group of their scientific groups who considered um this matter and they decided |
| 11:20 | to prioritize four techniques for looking into further for potential regulation and further investigation and those are listed in the press release but I'll just say what they are they were in hunting ocean alkalinity macroagal cultivation uh Marine Cloud brightening and micro bubbles reflective materials that's the four things and the governing bodies themselves basically agreed those could go forward and they have established a legal intercessional correspondence group to look at the legal issues around the different techniques because |
| 12:06 | they may be somewhat varied um and the correspondence group of the scientific groups is good to carry on looking at um well first of all it's going to continue looking at some other potential techniques to see if they may be worth considering but the main thing it's going to do is going to be look at existing guidance documents and so on that they have already to see if any of those are relevant for any of those four techniques I mentioned just now um there's probably only one that would be affected by that I |
| 12:44 | think because the macro algae one could be considered potentially organic material and natural origin and there's an existing guidance document forward dumping of such materials uh in the ocean that's already been in existence for some years the other ones are probably not going to have any existing guidance that would be directly relevant but it's something they're going to look into anyway um so that's essentially what the result was in short but you can read the press release yourselves obviously you've got |
| 13:19 | the link there um so that's basically it that's exciting news isn't it Chris because it's it comes alongside uh this uh United States uh Federal interest in geoengineering research and so it shows that the political wins uh are shifting because uh yes you would you would say that that this decision for these four priority evaluation techniques um uh would have been um unlikely and so do you know anything about the pro the evaluation process uh further than what you said um well um at the moment they're just |
| 14:08 | considering whether they would go and look at them further in when they adopted the original um Amendment back in 2013 they put in place a procedure or it was developed the following year I think to be exact um to actually consider something for regulations to put a specific procedure in place I can probably dig that out somewhere and um I don't know if I can provide a link to it because it's on a it's on the IMO web account sites unless you've got access to it although you can get access it's it's not directly it's sort of |
| 14:43 | accessible well I could probably perhaps uh email it around afterwards or something um so there is a specific procedure to go through before they would present the uh governing bodies with a proposal to actually add that onto the existing um Amendment so that sort of procedure is there in place the other thing just following what Robert said about the US uh interesting point came up at the meeting because when the original amendment was being discussed the U. |
| 15:18 | S message back in 2013 2012 the US was very uh reluctant not to say sometimes obstructive in that consideration process and it is a complete change of uh perspective now the U.S delegation was much more interested involved wanting to propose things and and generally much more constructive so because one of the uh delegates came up and spoke to me after the meeting of the uh during the working group they had during the meeting and said what's changed what's up what's up with the US you know it's a complete change of sort |
| 16:02 | of policy as it were and I said well several things one obviously there's a different government and the obviously the bar Administration has come up with the inflation reduction act and all the related things under that secondly they're actually being faced with people wanting to do things in the ocean within their jurisdiction which means they've got to start thinking about hard about you know permitting and monitoring and various other things like that so it's actually coming face to face with those things I think that's |
| 16:32 | really made them think actually we've got to start thinking about this and how we're going to do it so I think that's why we've had the change of tone from the US but that is that is I think quite significant because you have to remember also the US is not currently a party to the London protocol it's a member of a party to the London convention but not actually to the protocol um there's all sorts of reasons for that which I I could tell you about but it's probably a little bit convoluted and |
| 16:57 | it's it's connected with the US view on the law of the sea primarily um and they don't sign up to that either currently although they do accept most of it is effectively customary international law but just not all of it they don't like various bits mainly I think to do with deep sea Mining and some things like that is um one or two bits that they object to so anyway that's I think it's an interesting change of tone from the US authorities um certainly I'm I want to say authorities I mean um at the meeting |
| 17:29 | they're mainly represented by the state department the US EPA um the no National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration I think those are probably the main bodies I'm not sure if anyone for the Navy was there I don't think so but those are the main bodies and of course they have a quite complex permitting scheme in the US as I'm sure Brian is probably well aware there are way areas agencies indeed so getting a permit in the U. |
| 17:55 | S is like navigating through the swamp eyeing other to try and get all the different peoples on board so um uh that's just an interesting little side in fact one or two parties uh one or two of the companies have decided to try and relocate to Canada because they think it might be a bit easier and in fact there's another outfit who are trying to do one of their Trials of Iceland as well also because probably they find it a bit too difficult in the U. |
| 18:23 | S foreign that's one of the reasons that we're working in the Western Pacific right now but we are optimistic that upon registering our marine permaculture vessels in Australia we can fly outweigh an Australian flag at least or carry an Australian flag in our vessels and operate in the U. |
| 18:44 | S and other waters as needed and ultimately get the U.S Coast Guard on board as well so we see some progress there it is encouraging to see more attention um being paid to these some of these regenerative approaches restoring natural upwelling we believe is going to be absolutely essential there's a very curious framing Associated because of course it is it is the London dumping convention and thus um you know they're focused on dumping but to classify seaweed naturally growing or otherwise growing in the sea and falling off a |
| 19:15 | platform during growth and sinking as being dumping it's it's rather curious framing because it's already in the ocean uh growing from Oceanic materials so I think it's something we need to work to uh broadens the Framingham pops over time yeah I mean I think if you were growing seaweeds the stuff that's dropping off naturally You could argue is not dumping I would Grant you however some other people doing macro algae want to quite deliberately fail and dump and quite clearly that's a |
| 19:44 | different ball game to what you're talking about so uh there are different aspects is that depends exactly what the proposals are the definition of dumping has has always been quite political when it comes to the uh the geoengineering space um I'll uh sorry I'll I'll come back but um the uh the the issue being that uh if the purpose is uh to just get rid of it as as something that's unnecessary that's dumping but if the purpose is for an economic benefit then uh then that's good that won't wash Robert I'm afraid |
| 20:26 | dumping is dumping it's the just the putting the stuff in the ocean whether it's getting rid of or for a purpose uh is not necessarily the point um the only purpose which there are some specific exclusions so if you're doing things to exploiting mineral resources for example that's specifically excluded from the convention of the protocol um and there are exemptions for things called placement which one might try and argue that this was a replacement activity but the 2013 amendment is effectively a regulation of specific |
| 20:59 | placement activities so it then is not have to be dumping in in that sense to get regulated right and along those lines mariculture is Exempted by Annex four uh and so that's an important conventional conventional Mary culture and that means also things like scale things like for example if you want to do a hundred thousand square kilometers of America I don't think you're exempt we're not going to do that in one year no you're not but I mean yeah that's a good question I I suppose that induces a lot of fear among Marine |
| 21:43 | ecologists uh and I think we do need to proceed incrementally and get the third party verification by the same token if it hasn't left the ocean I mean Annex 4 is pretty clear that dumping refers to adding matter to the ocean and um from that perspective if the seaweed's in the ocean it never leaves the ocean even if intentionally sunk does it really meet the definition of dumping I think that's yeah I think it does I think it does I don't think there's any doubt about it personally that's my view anyway even with the |
| 22:13 | adding matter to the ocean Clause that's interesting yeah I mean I think because one of the things that I did mention that one of the techniques is Marine Cloud brightening because you could argue is that really putting stuff in the ocean but of course it affects the ocean now undoubtedly because if you brighten clouds to Inc to reflect sunlight you're going to reduce insulation on the ocean if you do reduce insulation you're probably changing the temperature you're probably changing productivity and there's a whole raft of |
| 22:43 | other things that would be affected as well in addition I suspect not all of the salts and sea water stuff you fire up into the atmosphere is going to go up in the atmosphere I suspect there will be a small propulsion perhaps that might come back and land on the sea surface I suspect sea salt particles line landing on the sea surface micro layer might have an effect even if it's small I don't know let's just guess what but so anyway that reflects a really quite contorted political ideology not really |
| 23:14 | because there's a precedent already Robert we um they regulated Marine incineration years ago on the grounds of the stuff that went up in the atmosphere landed back on the ocean so there's already a precedent in fact established but now this latest meeting suggests that that's likely to change which is very welcome news it'd be really interesting because uh so many of these people who are speaking about Marine uh sorry about Marine Cloud brightening um have uh failed to consult experts like Stephen who we've got here on the |
| 23:45 | call I'd be interested in if Stephen knows anything about this uh this latest development oh we're all we're doing is adjusting the size distribution of a much larger amount of salt that is being thrown up by breaking waves so you know if you if you're going to stop Marine Cloud Brighton you have to say why are you not stopping children splashing each other when they're paddling or Wales spouting to to spray thrown up by the wake of a ship that some of those drops are going to go into the yeah I mean the whole point of |
| 24:25 | the the amendment uh is for things that are done deliberately to affect climate change and related things that could have a widespread uh scale effect and so on as described in the definition um so um children playing and so on are definitely not covered by that sort of thing anyway nor whales any natural processes like whales are definitely not covered it's got to be man who's doing it not animals on the natural environment of itself but the material is the same with a different people yeah yeah I don't deny |
| 24:56 | that anyway we have to wait and see they may decide it is not covered and they don't go down that route but I think that at the end of the day someone sometime probably will regulate it on the ground or you are trying to change the climate whether it's done from a marine perspective or some other perspective because and and then if it is any impacts on the Marine environments as I said that there will be impacts if it's done on a big scale will have to be taken into consideration and that's when the London project will |
| 25:24 | come in what we're trying to do is to stop the seed changing we're trying to get back to the Sea Service temperatures that we used to have overnight so yeah sure undo the change yeah I I know all that but there still could be localized changes anyway we don't know at the moment I'm not saying it would be I'm just saying that's one of the things that would have to be considered well anyway it's it's in it's an exciting thing now I I just wanted to check I'm looking after the agenda and |
| 25:50 | John you're happy for me to to share the meeting are you or would you like to uh well uh so uh uh can I check if there's anything uh further on this uh this IMO uh press release um uh uh before we go on to the uh the next point on the agenda uh which uh which is um uh the um uh BBC report on the uh sargassing Farm in the the South Atlantic which uh which Chris uh mentioned cool so Chris do you have anything to say about that and I'll just um well the reports there um Brian's are aware of this it's it has been known about |
| 26:37 | for some time um it's just they've got a new website as well which I was only aware of recently which I haven't had a chance to have a look at yet um but um they did a one of those um open air this is cdpr webinars um it's a month to a couple of months ago I think earlier in the year anyway and um they were wanting to throw away comments from one of the presenters um which were rather um ill-informed shall we say like Beyond national jurisdiction you can basically do what you like which I think was a |
| 27:15 | rough uh inaccurate statement it may not be well controlled but it's certainly not total free-for-all you can do what the hell you like um so anyway um and apparently uh something I saw on the good CDR thread recently uh will Burns is looking to have perhaps another webinar or something sometime in the next few months uh from the sea Fields folks so no doubt we'll get some more information then uh it is an interesting um uh proposal um it's a different sort of thing to what Brian's proposing but it's another |
| 27:53 | sort of variant um I think the thing for me at the moment is I'm somewhat I don't like this phraseology that the ocean jars are deserts because they're not deserts um they're actually maybe low productivity but that's not the same as being a desert and in fact if you look for example at the sargasso sea commission and the information they've got about the sargassoc which is a North Atlantic chart there's a tremendous amount of important marine life and things that happen in those jars they're not deserts that are |
| 28:26 | devoid of life they've got a different sort of life and there's different scale and all the rest of it but they're not devoid of Life by any means yeah I think it's worth mentioning that even North American deserts aren't devoid of life either no they're they're primary productivity may be one or two orders but the impression given Brian by quite a lot of proponents of using the jars is that these areas have got virtually nothing in it of any significance and they're effectively we |
| 28:55 | can do what we like there without worrying about it that's the sort of impression one gets and that's certainly not the case for example in the sargasso sea you get the North American and European eels breed there as we all know and in fact there's a news item only just yesterday saying they actually are putting tags now and they think they can precisely find out where they do this but um beside that is important uh communities of tuna billfish and other things that all use this aggressive sea as one of their uh as a resource area so |
| 29:26 | you know these these areas are not and need to be thought of more carefully about what other resources are in them and that you might interfere with by doing large scale activities that's all I'm saying I agree now keep in mind uh that we have to get Beyond the Myth of a pristine ocean even now oh sure sure certainly increase the temperature we've added methyl Mercury we've added lead and sadly the primary production of these regions if you include their margins is down between perhaps well we've seen five to twenty percent |
| 29:58 | increase in stratification particularly in subtropical and tropical settings so we're looking at an altered situation and getting back to original productivity regionally would be helpful perhaps for benthic communities if not others and I think it's worth simply documenting people need to understand the orders of magnitude difference in productivity and primary productivity between these different regions and that's an essential part because a lot of the public has a somewhat monolithic view of the ocean I think we need to |
| 30:32 | really help them understand the orders of magnitude and difference in production because quite frankly there are papers out of Australia trying to say kelp's no help and and that's like what they're comparing is a high productivity microalgae near shore context against macroalgae context and the reality is much of the work that we're doing is really um you know using some regions that are commonly in the eez zones but that are mesotrophic or all oligotrophic so in other words much lower productivity |
| 31:09 | um and using you know hectares of uh of kelp reforestation as a result so I think comparing before and after is important and moving not only you know towards doing fewer bad things in the ocean but more good things in the ocean in terms of restoring natural dwelling we see is fairly important on a regional scale yeah one thing I just like to point out Brian this book there was a paper um back in 2011 that uh said is there a decline in Marine phytoplankton and their conclusion was based on certain um activities such as the uh the |
| 31:49 | Plankton recorder type activities and also several other um surveys and things was that certainly the areas covered by those particular programs there was no evidence really of significant decline of productivity that's the North Atlantic and wonders of other areas I'll put the link to the paper in the chat if you want just for your information the paper that comes to my mind was the integrative safety disk data that took data from 1899 through satellite data looking at ocean visibility in other words the the range |
| 32:23 | of vision visibility attenuated by plankton in the ocean and the Suchi disk data combined with the satellite data was indicating uh losses of 30 to 40 percent in subtropical oceans yeah anyway I think though it does illustrate that there are uh different you get different answers maybe from different approaches and techniques and therefore it's not necessarily quite a dead straight clear Universal message necessarily about that that's all I was I pointed out yeah there's variance among the techniques I |
| 32:58 | felt the Lee paper for nature of climate change in 2020 is particularly apt because it documents a five to twenty percent increase in stratification especially in subtropical and tropical oceans and that increase in stratification according to the models uh pretty well understood that the Permian mass extinction in the ocean was closely related to Oceanic stratification so there I believe there's a more compelling case that stratification in fact can lead to significant losses in productivity given the loss that reduced amount of nitrate |
| 33:29 | and phosphate availability associated with less upwelling yeah now Brian with the uh uh you mentioned various things that uh humans have added to the deep ocean and I think the worst thing is heat so uh that's uh that's the cause of the stratification and so on now I I saw that you were um uh connected with this uh ocean Visions um paper but on on Research that I've just linked and uh in the chat and I'd imagine that uh that that would uh provide a lot of uh useful guidance for this uh yeah I was involved as well but |
| 34:08 | just as an observer what's your impression of the way it came out Chris I haven't had a chance to look at it yet actually because I was away nearly all of last week at a meeting in um Malmo um so I haven't had a chance to to look at it but if it's anything like it was before I think it's a useful um a useful tool um that would be helpful for many people I think it may not answer everything it's a useful tool yes I think it'll be useful tool we were sad to see some of our key tables not |
| 34:40 | included which I think provided would have provided a good framework for the industry but let's hope we can get those into future documents in other places uh I think one one of the conclusions that I felt might have been a little self-serving is that they're calling for 100 million dollars more research which I don't object to as long as we're also getting the uh support to actually do some um hectare scale uh studies near shore and offshore uh that can be be observed that way um so I think a balance of |
| 35:15 | uh helping to get these procedures started and an appropriate monitoring is going to be a good uh path forward and I'm hoping that that funding can can be balanced as we go forward yeah one related sort of on the one of the other techniques the um particles techniques which were mentioned as one of the four you you will have heard of the so-called artistic Ice Project which is the idea of the little silic microsphericals um apparently I something I heard recently was that their not entirely given up but they're |
| 35:55 | putting their focus at the moment and putting these on the Himalayan glaciers to try and uh preserve those rather than doing work on the ocean at the minute um in fact there was a paper that I can't quite or report or something I came across in the last week or two where some people were raising some concerns about doing that on the ocean in terms of uh animals and things ingesting these particles I can't remember where the thing was but uh but they seem to be focusing on glaciers currently Russell zeitz has been very critical of |
| 36:26 | the Leslie Fields uh micro bubbles or sorry markovall is different but the glass beads yeah um uh concept and just the the whole question of whether we'll actually uh increase Albedo or or possibly uh reduce Albedo yeah that's right there was a paper I just can't claim your hands on it at the moment and uh yes what's the context for reducing Albedo because I've seen the experimental results of validated near term a substantial increase in Albedo the problem is the where you put it and if you get snow on it and whether it |
| 37:03 | sings into the snow and things like that as to whether it actually isn't able to enable its effect I think is one of the things I have to find the paper if I can find it before the end of the office to get in the chat possibility of algae growing on them which would reduce the Albedo over time whether they would remain reflective yeah good point okay well um I will say the Himalayan one is being promoted by the climate benefit concert which goes on November 5th through 10th that's part of the cop and so that would be focusing on the |
| 37:44 | Himalayan glaciers and uh you know there's plenty of sand up there in any case so Hollow sand may not uh change it that much so anyway that's an initial project that hopefully will gather some interest and attention and support yeah well uh okay is it okay if we move on to uh now to um so uh just uh looking again at our agenda we've got uh trichodesmium which is not a word I've seen before so I'd like to uh make a little uh piano phrase to this little uh little organism it it could I believe in context with |
| 38:25 | things like the seafields process and my boy and flakes become a a world saver on its own at the moment it produces something like half of the nitrogenous nutrient there is in the ocean and um it it um it requires um mainly iron and phosphorus at the surface to to grow and with stratification we're getting much less of both of those but putting in Burn flakes which contain both ion and phosphate should allow them to increase and therefore to allow much of the oligotropic oceans to become more productive in both macroalgae and |
| 39:17 | microalgae oh not sure that's a good idea traffic ocean gyas have been like that forever and I don't think changing those on Omega scale is a good idea at all but you said yourself that these set your discs have shown a decrease in phytoplankton I didn't okay okay are you you I agree with it and this would tend to return it back to not being so so bad now the um the the the only thing which really eats them with each like a dragon are copepods uh but they when they eat it they basically release it to the the rest of |
| 40:07 | the uh of the marine food chain and therefore going up to the two new and that would uh would be increasing in in the uh in their nutrient values um they uh the tricho lesbian um I like like Seas like straws scattered Over the Sea and when they Decay they smell like um a new cut cut hay which sounds rather nice to me um and if um if the uh the sea Fields things in Brian's work does does get the nod it will be an additional means as well as upload Welling of getting um more biomass into the sea which I think is which is a a pretty good sort of |
| 41:02 | thing so I'm I'm I'm more in favor of these little bugs and uh if we can give them a bit of help along so much the better with all the proper testing and that first to see what what effects it really does have any um any comments I think I might be able to reconcile this question of oligotrophic and decreasing productivity and the difference is um it's less that the oligotrophic regions are changing their productivity and it has I think a lot more to do with that the margins of the oligotrophic |
| 41:37 | regions are getting larger so that integrated over the surface of the Earth productivity is decreasing and so we've seen these transitions from uh well you know low productivity subtropical dryers and the the fronts are moving forward and as a result the least productivity the least productive areas of the ocean are increasing in area and that results in even agree with archer yeah yeah challenges so that's that's a lot of it yeah if you look at that paper that I put Link in it uh it claims for example |
| 42:09 | the North Atlantic based on the continuous Plankton recorder there's actually been an increase in chlorophyll uh of course that is um the regions that which they cover which are from the main shipping routes uh and then I suspect some of them at least don't go across the Gia I mean if you go between sort of the UK and the North and the east coast of the US you go far enough North you miss the jar completely anyway so those regions will be outside the giant therefore will give maybe different results to what you would find in the |
| 42:38 | jar agreed right so uh we'll move on and um I will talk about the work I've been doing on a cost comparison between um cutting emissions and um geoengineering and so what I'll do of the where where I was prompted to uh to look at this was that the the Australian government has requested comment on its electric vehicle policy and uh so I looked at the policy and uh the the headline goal of the policy is to uh help uh keep uh global warming um below uh two degrees Celsius and uh so I was uh I've always been a |
| 43:40 | bit skeptical about uh the uh how much electric vehicles would actually help cut the temperature and um I've thought that you know there's it's there are uh other motives for electric vehicles rather than cutting the temperature and people just use cutting the temperature as a as a convenient cover to to say that that their goal is to address climate change when when really their their goal is to uh uh is I think it's much more personal uh the the reasons why people like uh electric vehicles but anyway uh so I I |
| 44:20 | did some uh I did some numbers that I'll uh I've just got a a very rough um version of of this uh which I'll I'll just uh speak to uh quickly and um the uh let's see um I'll just uh okay so looking at an order of magnitude estimates uh comparing a full electrification of the U. |
| 44:47 | S transport sector to uh stratospheric aerosol injection just as as an indicative uh way of looking at it now I found a paper that said that SII would be able to reduce um insulation or a radiator forcing by two watts per square meter which is uh uh is quite a remarkable scale of effect and then uh there's a one of my favorite charts is is this one um which which looks at the um Earth Energy imbalance and the uh the red line going up shows that you know we're we've got effective radiative forcing of about two watts per square |
| 45:37 | meter which is with CO2 who was the main factor and and methane as the next main one and then uh balanced by a whole lot of uh negative effects and so if if all of the CO2 that we've added since the industrial revolution has caused a radiated forcing increase of 1.7 megawatts that's a trillion tons of CO2 so roughly so if we if we say decarbonizing the US Energy sector would reduce five gigatons of of CO2 per year and going electric would only be a small fraction of that then my my rough estimate of the the |
| 46:25 | costs um so I did these calculations that I can share with with people of the uh so saying that the RF cut from the stratospheric aerosol injection of two watts per square meter 1500 times the effect of cutting all annual emissions from U.S transport and uh looking at the costs of those decarbonizing U. |
| 46:53 | S transport might cost 10 trillion dollars and geoengineering for 20 years might cost 100 billion dollars that produces a cost difference of ten thousand one and so uh it's like that seems to me quite a um a material uh difference that's uh that should be of of public interest so I I wanted to uh to share that here and uh and uh invite comment okay [Music] um those numbers Robert probably don't even include embodied energy end of life uh disposal of electric vehicles and other other added factors as well well I I suspect it's I suspect it's |
| 47:41 | more likely to be closer to a million to one when you when you look at the um the electric vehicles and then you know seeing the uh the price increases of materials such as lithium and uh and the the whole Reliance on fossil fuels and like there's it's like that there's this fantasy mentality that's captured the world and uh it's uh because climate change is such an emotional topic people latch onto something that they can relate to and they can relate to electric vehicles they can't relate to |
| 48:19 | stratospheric aerosol injection uh or or other just the whole concept of increasing the planetary Albedo is is not something that the uh you know popular psychology can can cope with and it's it seems to be you know quite so it's it's so welcome to see this uh this discussion in various places about what we can do and and so I think you know putting this this sort of I haven't seen this sort of a cost comparison in the uh academic literature and uh I'd just be really interested to know if uh if this |
| 48:57 | uh this sort of analysis has previously been done I guess just a question of whether it's an either or discussion uh you know whether I mean it's we still it's still good to have electric vehicles but probably saying it's better to do other things which are more effective so it's it's a question of how how that discussion is framed I guess if if your goal is to stop dangerous climate change then uh my view is that you should look at things in terms in economic terms and say okay you've got |
| 49:39 | investment options you've got one that will uh um uh have one effect and another for the same money that will have a million times the same effect so which one do you choose and at the moment we're saying we choose the one that's got the effect of one uh and we ignore the one that's got the effect of a million and um so uh that's uh it's it's a way of framing the conversation John listen uh yeah Tim I think Tim Yeo has done a comparison he's got a kind of um methodology for comparing |
| 50:17 | um and and energy input and energy output so you know if you're exit if your Marine Cloud brightening for example how much energy do you put into uh producing uh droplets and then the energy out is the amount of cooling power you produce and he he manages to uh include CDR and omissions and things uh in in his um in his calculations and he he comes to the conclusion that unless unless you can get that ratio above a thousand uh uh it's not it's not a runner so that's how is it from Harvard yeah yeah if you yeah look I'll if you want |
| 51:24 | to check out the nice ratio to make a a condensation nucleus that's going to be used for marine Cloud brightening you multiply the surface area of a 0.8 Micron drop times the surface tension of the water okay and that'll give you a a rather small amount of energy if you then compare that with the amount of energy that's reflected by the cloud drop that grows on this little reconnaissance fish nucleus uh multiplied by the energy that's hitting it from the Sun and how long it lives for you're getting numbers for that |
| 51:59 | ratio of over a billion times so there's an incredible energy gain from just making a tiny little condonation nucleus and letting it reflect uh and the uh the cost estimates that I'm using for uh the the spray vessels are based on uh what we we spent on Corvettes in 1940 which were made in a similar sort of numbers were a bigger bigger displacement and a bigger power and also uh the heavy earth-moving machinery which is amazingly like the um variable pitch hydrofoils that I'm using for generating energy on the uh on |
| 52:44 | the uh the spray vessels well big big um earth-moving things like jcbs are costing about nine thousand pounds a ton and they've now got quite a lot of electronics on them they've got GPS and all that kind of stuff if you work this out you find that the the number of spray vessels you need is a few hundred and they're going to cost about uh maybe three maybe four or five million dollars each you you find that the whole Fleet that you need for the whole world is costing you less than a top football club |
| 53:22 | uh you know the the ratio is incredibly High we've been getting those getting those really high ratios into the into the public uh conversation I I think is something really important and it it reflects the uh the need to um form a common measure for all climate interventions in as and I would say that radiator forcing is that a common measure but it's it's not a measure that's um casts a good light on uh on the value of emission reduction and I think that that's uh that's one reason why it's |
| 54:06 | been neglected okay sure spray vessels Stephen are also very elegant because they're powered by Renewables they're powered by wind energy as well people are actually saying that the thing that's really bad about Marine Cloud brightening is it stops people working on getting rid of government which is um possibly true if we 've got the logic of that is totally fallacious yes so yeah it's it it's saying we've got something that we want to do which is nowhere near as effective as what you're |
| 54:41 | planning and so we're going to stop you from doing it because you're going to show us up that's that's the sole reason you're going to show us up as being liars and incompetent and stupid and ignorant and unscientific and we can't have that yeah sorry to be uh a bit rude there but uh yeah it's I've asked the the quite a big department in Edinburgh University if they'd like to have a lecture a presentation about Marine Club right now so they wouldn't um there's 40 people doing research on |
| 55:17 | carbon reduction in Edinburgh in a 10 million pound building um and they don't want to be told well the pope didn't want to be told that uh that uh Jupiter had moons in the town of Galileo so yeah we don't want to look through your telescope yeah yes um all right so uh let's uh let's just move on unless unless there's anything else on just Robert there's probably a there's even a broader discussion about the whole benefit of subsidies I mean this is valuable public money and what |
| 55:54 | is the not just the cost benefit but the environmental benefit of of all sorts of things you know subsidies the fossil fuel industry and the electric vehicles everything what is the outcome what do we I mean that's there's a broader discussion in Beyond electric vehicles that I think should be had yeah I was just using electric vehicles as uh as a case study and uh then just the whole concept of decarbonizing the transport sector is one way of broadening it um but uh yeah uh there's an illustration thing |
| 56:29 | now John Nissan I just wanted to raise an issue that um it seems that the fossil fuel industry seems to be dominating the ipcc and hence the cop 27 and all the papers that get written uh and they don't seem to like the idea of SRM um [Music] whereas you'd have thought they would like SRM because it would allow decarbonization to take place much slower but they don't seem to like it now is that just because they are afraid of black from the climate activists who hate the idea of interfering with the climate system |
| 57:28 | why why did the fossil fuel companies like the idea of this RN they don't like it I've tried I just had a recent correspondence with people in in BP and they they decided that they weren't interested I wrote to the head of BP who's saying how important the climate thing was uh I did get a reply which is that it's a bit unusual and it was it was actually quite a polite reply but they said we didn't want to do it at this stage okay so do you think that's ignorance [Music] or is it deliberate |
| 58:09 | um uh of prosecution and and just not wanting to know I think the only explanation could be that if you are going to do it you're admitting that the problem really is quite serious yes so it's better to pretend that it isn't a problem yeah they're threatened by Solutions they're they're in they're in favor of decapitalization law because uh that's going to just continue the status quo but uh they're not in favor of solutions that's why they're opposed to it well they certainly are opposed to anything |
| 58:45 | that would stop the melting of the activation that would limit their ability to extract oil and gas and and also shipping so uh the like there's a lot of confused uh agendas that are that are mixed up here and it can usefully be compared to the um tobacco Playbook and so there's a uh some yeah quite complicated agendas and I think this uh suggestion that John is implying that the NGO Community have been duped as useful idiots for the fossil fuel interests to promote a solution that they know won't work uh |
| 59:33 | because uh they they in order to deflect attention from solutions that will work is I think an interesting question in this uh this whole area now uh Grant wanted to comment foreign my own personal view is that the fossil fuel industry as a whole is talking from a position of we are already always going to be here and so the fact that you have an industry such as the U. |
| 1:00:19 | S Transportation uh it's going to be 30 40 years before that becomes electrified as stated by the recently by the chairman of Chevron who said hey we got you here we're going to be here and we're probably going to be here forever so uh I think they've maybe open to the idea of cooling our planet because that impacts everybody and the cost diverted towards mitigation repair of Florida all of those things eventually comes out of a consumer's pocket and their markets will be affected by that but it's it's not a not a happy picture for me |
| 1:01:14 | thank you yeah thanks so I've I've added the uh the link that Grant mentioned into uh but you could folks put their hands down when they finished I thought so that Robert can those who wants to talk so this this was the paper that Grant mentioned Chevron CEO blames climate policies for Global energy crisis oh yeah the link the link is in the chat and um yeah so uh I I think that it's um uh it's important to see that the uh the political likelihood of decarbonization and of achieving that zero through |
| 1:01:58 | emission reduction is uh is really going to be uh much slower than the uh than uh many of the climate activists believe or or hope or require and it really indicates the the need for an Albedo Focus as uh the first priority in climate policy while uh you know the slower efforts to remove greenhouse gases and decarbonize the economy proceed over coming decades uh John Nissen did you ever heard yeah I've left my hand up deliberately to to reply to Grant uh the Chevron CEO is arguing that with that say pretty much much the best thing |
| 1:02:50 | would be to do the decarbonization slowly and then surely having SRM would allow decarbonisation to take place slowly so isn't potentially Chevron are going to be Pro SRM unmute please Grant we could find out yeah if there was any way of communicating with Chevron uh there are they have an a vice president of environmental Affairs who's from me trying to spend a lot of time putting spin on the failure of their project off the northwest coast of Australia but uh it's worth a try okay well let's let's try that |
| 1:03:51 | I'll find some contacts and happy to work with you around it John yeah excellent that's the Gorgon sequestration project that you're you're mentioning with yeah yeah uh he the yes Gorgon is uh proposed by somebody that it would be great if they didn't have to pay the Australian government 680 million dollars a year for this inability to contain carbon dioxide and could replace us with carbon credits uh that's an interesting concept but it is practically no tax in Australia and uh extracts enormous |
| 1:04:35 | profits from Australia and so there's quite a bit of uh disquiet about that all right now John listen to you is your hand still up no no no no okay so the the final thing that we had on the agenda was cop27 and uh so any comments there the climate benefit concert will be a key aspect that will be showcasing regenerative Solutions including for the oceans and that should be November 5th through 10th I'd recommend going to sumitra das's site healthy climate initiative. |
| 1:05:28 | org and that will have details on the concert which is free and you know there are a number of interviews taking place this month and they're going to be included in the six days of programming from November 5th November 10th that will be available showcasing and fundraising for uh the first of what we hope to be several uh global cooling type projects thanks Brian one group we've managed to introduce to the concert is is a group called Nanook Inuit group from from Greenland that did become the poster group for the for the |
| 1:06:11 | concert which is is great so it'll spread the word it's it's a great vehicle to get the message out there I think there's this concert it uh it should help to gain a bit of momentum so yeah turn it into an annual event this is the inaugural event but ultimately it would be Affiliated and associated with cop directly and in future years we anticipate having at least one of the concert days be in person uh at the cop events yes the first of it is the next ones hope to be in a live events to be great if it gets to them |
| 1:06:50 | uh quick question John uh which group uh n-a-n-o-w-o-k the young group from Greenland so not that they're not not the Sami or the Inuit yeah no they're not in Greenland no no no no no we we had something from uh Greenland appeared on uh David attenborough's uh program last night uh I uh totally five hours ago to be precise um uh and the the ending of the program was uh that uh we we can do it uh I we can kind of save the planet and then those people said you know we |
| 1:07:54 | can reduce our emissions we can and somebody else said we can generate power more efficiently and then and then at the end they have this uh indigenous person I think they said he was Inuit brought in the album Greenland um saying then do it and David attenborg completely missed the chance to talk about anything like Marine Cloud brightening uh or things that might actually work to refreeze the Arctic which is what it you were showing how ice is melting all over the world particularly in the artery now I I had some comments about |
| 1:08:49 | um cop 27 the Healthy Planet Action Coalition has prepared a vision statement which it's seeking endorsements and it's promoting the the concept of the climate Triad uh the idea that Albedo greenhouse gas removal and emission reduction should be equal priorities now uh my sense is that there's there's been very little appetite for uh for that and the the similar paper that was sent to 26 at Glasgow was uh totally ignored as far as I could tell although it's good to see that there's there is |
| 1:09:36 | movement in the areas that we've discussed with the the US geoengineering research strategy and the and the change of view in the the IMO and so this whole conversation about what's the role of Albedo in preventing dangerous warming is something that I would just love to see on the cop agenda like I have no interest in in going along because I just find that the you know the conversations at those sort of places don't don't give much opportunity for uh for people to to contribute but um this uh this suggestion that the uh |
| 1:10:21 | that the agenda needs to be uh needs to be changed um to uh to include this uh this broader conversation in albeda about Albedo is is important so um yeah uh now that brings me to Alex Carlin uh who is a friend of Russ George and it has uh helped publicize Russ Georgia's ocean pastures Alex encouraged me to uh to go to shamal Sheikh for the for the cop conference but I'm I I don't plan to do that and uh I was very interested to see the uh the recent uh conversation on the CDR Google group about Russ George and |
| 1:11:13 | um I I I felt like uh as was commented there that that Russ has been quite deceptive because uh there was a a legal case uh mounted by the hater against Russ which uh which ex I I read it through and I was really quite Disturbed to find that I I had accepted Russ's claims on good faith and um and others had found areas in which uh that may not have been uh Justified and in particular uh the the Haida had originally said that they they fully trusted him and and so Russ had circulated those claims but then |
| 1:11:59 | subsequently the relationship really sowed quite badly with the with the court case and the uh I'll I'll see if I can share the link but it was it was really quite um quite distressing yeah Robert oh okay thank you Chris I'll just post it in a second but it does illustrate uh how easy it is to be deceived if um okay so that's yeah by the way there's a lot of stuff from much earlier on in in the link you need to go down to the stuff that was posted from the beginning of October ignore all the stuff for me because |
| 1:12:44 | that's the particular stuff I think that you were referring to the discussions with Jason McNamee and so on it's all at the October bit that the bit you were referring to I think that's that's right yeah so um the uh the most recent link was uh as you say from from Jason um saying that he attended the court uh sorry the um uh yeah uh he he attended and um uh here was the court documents foreign so let's see uh uh is there anything else people want to say about 37 I've also shared a link uh |
| 1:13:41 | there on the chat on the climate benefit concert and uh Nanook so feel free to share that with others perhaps our children and grandchildren they might be interested as well actually but it just gives an introduction to a H here we are I've I've found the uh the link within that um one that's uh that Chris has shared and I'll put this into the chat as well because honestly it makes quite disturbing reading um foreign by the hater salmon Restoration Corporation versus Russ George I thought that they had caught an |
| 1:14:42 | incredibly much larger numbers of salmon as a result of this every every other year for six six years I don't think it went on quite that long I think it was about three but four years I think but the other thing was they were targeting different species of salmon to the ones that actually bloomed and I'm not quite sure what that means but the other thing that was mentioned also in there is the claim about how much carbon was sequestered is about a fraction like a percent or so because they talked about was it 100 200 million |
| 1:15:21 | tons I think yeah and um there's a reference to a paper which suggests it's more like about one but very very much a cautionary tale so uh uh interesting to see Jason's comments there um now uh I'm thinking how are we going for time we've got 15 minutes if we continued to the full 90 minutes but happy to finish early if unless there's other things that people want to talk about I'm good finish earlier thank you well I was thinking I'd be interested in Chris's thoughts actually on whether |
| 1:16:08 | this uh increased attention by IMO on these four approaches and the classification of at least forms some forms of macro algae as geoengineering do you see this as a positive or negative development how do you how would you characterize this scrutiny quote it has to be seen as negative because I mean I think even if people like yourself and others may be entirely responsible in what they're planning there will always be some people who want to make a fast buck and might abuse the system in order to do so so I think |
| 1:16:38 | having some regulation I think is entirely sensible um obviously you want the regulation to be appropriate um so I think it should be seen as a positive and not just a negative because I think taken looking at the big picture I kind of imagine that people would be happy whoever they are with a free-for-all with no regulation so I think some regulation would be necessary at the end of the day the way the system works anyway is the international bodies set out the Frameworks and the guidance but the national authorities are the ones who |
| 1:17:14 | apply them IMO does not regulate the countries do the regulation that's the case with almost all International treaties there's a one or two very unusual exceptions and I believe the um oprc the chemical warfare convention is one of them but um that is not the normal case so it comes down to the National authorities and of course there is some degree of um uh flexibility shall we say however some countries might apply things obviously within the framework that exists so um and the other thing to remember is under |
| 1:17:50 | International conventions individual countries can always be more strict than what's laid down but they can't be less strict so countries have some feasibility as to what they like and don't like that's good well that's helpful and I think as an additional level we're anticipating a future Marine permaculture Council that would as part of the licensing procedure ensure best practices are uh taking place over and above whatever regulations exist so we're hoping to build multiple layers of |
| 1:18:22 | best practices and avoiding the the pitfalls and the irresponsible Behavior yeah I mean there are indeed best practices so there's also codes of practice that have been talked about um there's also moves to develop mrv codes of conduct and practice and there was a uh I can't remember if you were involved Brian but there was a something organized by Woods Hole a few a month or so ago which had a whole four days about mrv covering various problem reporting and verification monitor reporting verification |
| 1:19:00 | uh because one thing one thing I read a long time ago said that if you haven't got mrv you've got nothing you can have the best scheme in the world but if you can't do the mrv you're dead and mrv actually for some techniques in particular it's pretty challenging ocean fertilization actually being one of them yeah that's one reason we've adopted a differential approach as opposed to an integral approach that's been used for many terrestrial methodologies because you can't measure the total carbon of |
| 1:19:30 | the ocean very well but you can measure the flux of carbon and that's much easier and has Decades of precedent as well yeah but um I think some people are probably still a little bit um naive about getting in an mrv right I think most some people might see it just as a fairly straightforward step and I think for some techniques it's actually pretty complicated and they'll need a lot of careful thought and uh development are there any proceedings of the Woods Hall proceedings I haven't seen anything |
| 1:20:00 | yet it was recorded and and the presentations are supposed to be individually available as well ultimately but I haven't seen it come out yet while it was organized by Woods Hole it took place at the University of Maine not New York's main sorry University of Rhode Island okay it's obviously nearby all in person or hybrid or hybrid and in person so I I looked at it from the outside online uh but it was also on uh in person they had about oh I guess that probably had 40 or 50 people in person at least and |
| 1:20:33 | they probably had as many again at least uh you know because I had some presentations given virtually as well the presentations weren't all in person good well that's great and if you do hear things like that particularly in the ocean um love to hear about them or not we're not getting a replete set of these events but that sounds like a relevant one at times at times I I found until recently there was a big gap from earlier in the year until sort of September with very little webinars and things happening and then all of a |
| 1:21:04 | sudden you get rust to them appearing like as we say like you know like London wait even London bus you're waiting for one and then ten come along it's strongly seasonal everyone takes a holiday in the summer yeah basically this theme of regulation of uh geoengineering activities is uh is uh absolutely Central as Chris is saying you know monitoring and evaluation regulation is uh if you can't do that then you can't get political acceptance you you need the governor's framework and so it's it's interesting to see the |
| 1:21:41 | IMO engaging as uh as a body that's likely to be Central to the uh regulation of activities on the high seas and so yeah the the other aspect is that um you really need your monitoring reporting and verification not only to get your permitting right because you've got to do some data and so on in order to get your permits but you got you need it crucially for your carbon credits as well if that's what you want um and that was one of the main focuses of the meeting I just mentioned about the Woods Hole in the University of |
| 1:22:17 | Rhode Island it was quite a quite a focus on getting it for carbon credit type purposes and and I think there's going to be more stricter and much more attention paid to the mrv for carbon credits because the people who are paying and giving out money now are wanting much more reassurance that actually people are going to deliver if they're going to give them you know 100 million dollars to do something they want to be damn sure that they're actually going to produce the goods it's one of the big challenges for iron |
| 1:22:48 | sold aerosol because as you're saying Chris the monitoring and of ocean iron fertilization is very challenging and uh so with um uh on salt aerosol there are calculations uh models about effect which have been uh challenged by by some people but uh like one of the issues is getting a sense of the order of magnitude and if you if you can say well the effect is going to be more or less than than a rough order of magnitude then you can expect to to monitor in an approximate way one of the stories that's been quite distressing uh |
| 1:23:37 | recently has been the appalling carbon credit situation as far as forestry is concerned with uh you know so many uh claims about like people getting carbon credits for example just for planting seedlings and then allowing 95 of the of the trees to die and uh you know quite a scam and so uh the the whole climate spaces is beset by by these sorts of cautionary tales and you know so finding things that are effective that can be well governed and uh holistic way I think Drax is a complete scandal in the UK uh you know the the failure of uh the |
| 1:24:22 | overview of that wood pellet uh replacement for coal um so uh yeah uh be good to get more discussion about a lot of this governance and transparency accountability framework um it's quite easy to measure the temperatures of a sea and the reason that we're having hurricanes in Florida is because of sea surface temperatures between Africa and the Gulf of Mexico and a way that people who are operating spray vessels could earn a crust it'd be to get the governments round the gulf and the United States and maybe bits of |
| 1:25:03 | South America to agree on the pattern of sea surface temperatures that they think would be nicer than the ones that they're getting now and to pay the spray vessels according to how close they can get to the designated patterns of sea surface temperature and if you work out the the cost of damage following uh aragonian and compare that with the the cost of paying the interest on borrowing the money to make the spray vessels many many orders of magnitude benefit to cost ratio and I think this is it's quite easy to |
| 1:25:42 | measure sea surface temperature and uh it it seems to be everybody would agree that it's better to have category ones and category four so so we could let them say what they'd really like and and try and aim for it yeah I think the other point that all any of these regulations need to bear in mind it's that it's not a simple is it good or bad because at the end of the day it's a risk risk trade-off between the effects of climate change and many potential risks from doing the things that you're trying to do to |
| 1:26:19 | ameliorate it um and also climate change also is effectively a moving Baseline as well so it's not a static thing either so any regulation needs to take that sort of thing into account in fact the London protocols took that into account when it's um uh decided to permit um carbon sextration in the subsea bed back in 2006 um there was quite a big discussion about the risk and benefits of doing it uh both from a scientific and other perspective and they decided basically it was something that was worth doing |
| 1:26:54 | because the risks of doing it in terms of things like leakage were one factor but also the benefits if you reduce the CO2 in the air there was benefits for the ocean as well so you have to take both sides into account it's not a just certainly that's a that's a bad thing you shouldn't do it um it's a risk risk trade-off at the end of the day almost all of these types of techniques will not be 100 good and Zero Effect on the ocean because if you start doing big things in the ocean you're |
| 1:27:24 | banned to have some effect even if it's not too serious but there'll be some uh just a quick comment that we we really need much better modeling of all these processes the uh the modeling done for the Arctic sea ice is completely inadequate modeling done for weather extremes and how the Arctic amplification is affecting where the extremes that I don't think is even even in the models yeah it's a major things that are left out of the models and and yet so much is we what we would really like would be to |
| 1:28:12 | be able to when we do our trials uh to have the models verify against the results of the trial and the feedback uh system so models are improved as well as the deployment methods being improved that reminds me that the um the workshop this whole university Rhode Island Workshop modeling was one of the issues they talked about and basically they were saying yes we've got reasonable models for some things like um things in the ocean and the geochemical system and so on but resolution is not that great and what we really |
| 1:28:51 | need is super Computing to be able to get this resolution much more much finer and therefore potentially better so even accepting that the model may not be perfect anyway resolution can be quite key because in some of these big Ocean Models your cells are like 80 kilometers across which obviously is uh not very helpful if you're trying to model something that's a lot smaller scale than that roll on Quantum Computing well could be yeah well I'm not sure that's going to happen tomorrow I must go and thank you very much |
| 1:29:26 | everybody yeah just just as a as a side I saw something the other day someone supposedly trying to develop a Quantum battery that you can charge instantaneously sounds a bit of a challenge to me I have no idea whether it'll work I couldn't understand that one being charged at the end of it very good well we've come to the end of the the 90 minutes we just have uh one minute if anybody wants to make a final comment and otherwise we'll uh say goodbye and thank you very much all for uh joining the |
| 1:30:01 | conversation yeah it was a good discussion very good thanks Rob okay bye hi Brian is it just you left |
| 1:32:12 | yes I was just uh you're muted bro Brian I can't hear you yeah I was just getting some of the chat and uh now I can't only see your photograph oh that's strange yeah I can't hang on hang on hang on sorry sorry ah try again all right that's working probably sorry about that that's just me I had my sound turn up yeah I was just trying to capture some of the chat but perhaps you can do it more easily on desktop uh well it's going to zoom always gives me the chat at the end but you can do it here actually you can |
| 1:32:50 | if you bring up the chat I'm on I'm on the phone and mobile doesn't capture the chat okay right yeah well um but if you're capturing it check out later there were a lot of good references today excellent okay good so Robert's comments check out the Chevron article on our oilprice. |
| 1:33:12 | com because kind of crazy and we're uh of course all bracing for very high energy prices this winter uh-huh right um my system is going nuts sorry uh right here we go uh I'm not gonna be able to do anything for a little while but uh oh just like yeah normally get posted it's normally posted uh the chat you're saying yes uh it goes into a folder so I have it going into folder called Zoom recordings right and uh I think it's done it here okay yeah I've got meeting saved chat where we now yeah so I can yeah as you say loads of stuff what I'll |
| 1:34:04 | do I'll just email that to you now uh copy uh yeah I definitely suggest getting the uh checking the replay because there are a lot of good references today okay good yeah it's nice to see it foreign climate Foundation yes that's right that's on its way to you now okay just the just the chat. |
| 1:34:48 | text that sounds wonderful thanks okay have a wonderful evening and uh thanks for creating these meetings very productive that it was good to show and you're welcome Brian see you in a couple of weeks take care bye |