| (Click on a 'Start Time' to view the video) |
| 00:10 | who else have we got friends how are the experiments going with you friends very good i think i found a way how to catalyze the isa method enough to use so much iron you know excellent and uh making more chlorine thumbs making more methane depletion but i am i am right that the that if you do have um ferric chloride um nanoparticles that that will will do the job moderately well maybe not as well as your one where you've got uh iron oxide surrounded by water and hydrochloric acid whatever is that right um and at the moment it's |
| 01:10 | more on the paper and it needs uh uh work in the in the institutions of uh universities and so on you know and that costs money and this must i must wait until the money comes i think peter peterski did a little home experiment which he showed that it worked with with without this uh catalyzing yes yeah clive you want to take over procedures okay okay uh just thinking maybe you don't need me here i'm sure you don't actually um right well um good evening everyone and good morning uh in australia thank you for the |
| 02:01 | homework i have read it yeah you did your homework very good great stuff yeah and that's from chris uh anna hi dermot i haven't seen you for a while yeah welcome to dermis yeah yeah damn it's uh not been well hi john great and uh and chris yep let's set us the homework initially uh so we'll talk about okay so let's uh let's waste no time and make an agenda someone sent a chat already you know i don't really look at the chat till the end so if you need to alert me to anything anyone please |
| 02:45 | um just just speak up uh right so okay so yeah so first of all um so that was what should we call that so that was a was that um it was a medium article so that was this from say from chris [Music] article [Music] um [Music] article on basically oif wasn't it oaf well yeah if no it's ordinary nutrients not iron they've mentioned iron okay so we'll just say article yeah they mentioned on the article when they go on to their proposal that's right and that's right sorry three more focused on phosphorus |
| 03:35 | and nutrients i think that's right and then we're talking about lifting up the sediment ocean ocean ocean eutrophication okay that's too much isn't it neutrofication something like that i think it's got an eye coincidentally alex carlin just sent me his article in medium also on ocean pasture um restoration i just put that in the in the chat okay i don't want to talk about that but it's it's parallel to what chris is is talking about i haven't read it yet i just read the first paragraph |
| 04:30 | okay i think we have to have have something to say about it but um yeah so you put it you put a link in the chat yeah it's in the chat yeah so we can look at that um otherwise we yeah okay anyone anyone anything else i think it'd be nice to congratulate brian on his million pound prize for the climate foundation i'm drinking it not here today well he's billion dollars uh let's see if there's anything you'd like is it was any comment you'd like to make brian or saul or anything at all |
| 05:16 | uh we're so uh we're highly appreciative of this recognition it helps us to accelerate capacity building and funding towards the economically sustainable hectare of marine permaculture and we're enthusiastic about launching the marine permaculture industry on the momentum gained by this recognition with the x prize for carbon removal fantastic thank you brian as ever thank you willing ready to make a public statement that sounds well presented at all times excellent brian thank you very much my pleasure |
| 05:54 | yeah great um okay well um anything else so this is literally for uh anyone can ask any question this is you know some people here are experienced in this whole area of the ocean um i'm thinking of crisp and of course brian and john's been working the ocean a long time uh sails the ocean as well and friends and i have been reading lots of articles especially friends has so anyone with a question or a comment or wants to talk about something yeah i've got a question um i've recently run into an old friend of mine sebastian |
| 06:31 | stevens and the sea fields project this is um sargassum related as a carbon drawdown brian i think you probably know then um yeah and i'd be really interested in you know people's thoughts on it um so i start to dig in um it's um what's the name of the chapter the indian fellow um victor submits a check list that's right right now we and um manages to produce money right um yeah the other topic was i'll go ahead what's his other name last name uh sebastian stephens stevens like that okay |
| 07:38 | no no second s like that yep thank you yeah okay and someone maybe something else just there yeah um the latest uh so i think we should um review the latest version of just have a think um this is a popular show i'm trying to remember anyway there's a ucla paper reviewed by the just have a think fellow yeah and um let's see uh and i think it's it's regarding some scheme to do direct ocean capture uh by uh electrical excitation of sea water and the precipitation of calcium carbonate and i've written a um a review of this |
| 08:27 | in just have a think and elsewhere and uh want to discuss that it's a ucla study regarding direct ocean capture by precipitating calcium carbonate right ocean so sea capture um that sounds dubious to me yes exactly that's that's why i want to raise it and confirm please i'll paste a link to the uh article that ucla uh main paper is probably the best but there's a newsroom article as well yeah i think the paper yeah i watched that article on youtube and yeah i think it's broad i've written |
| 09:17 | a rebuttal and i want to get uh your thoughts on it right yeah okay so we'll get to that um tom guerrero have a view on that as well no doubt yeah yeah that makes sense expect we would all have a view if we saw it that yeah we've seen it um okay so anything else anyone um just one thing um there's a recent paper just come out uh by boyd a towel about which mentions uh ocean um sort of micro-algae type things and i just wondered what brought if brown seen it and if you had if you had comments on it yeah i've seen it i haven't read it and |
| 09:59 | um but i will take a look and give give some thoughts as well okay was that a macro or micro algae uh it's macro i think if i'm in brightly just a moment i'll just have a quick look i think he is he's gunning from ocean deforestation he talks about so i think that is macro algae yeah because okay okay so well it's uh sounds like there's not there won't be much no we talk about that perhaps brian can come back to the next meeting about it and not to look at it now that sounds fine let's let's aim for uh |
| 10:34 | two weeks from now okay so i'll put brackets around it um okay so i think we've got really much yeah can i uh just uh mention a uh something we had uh that we tried um uh we we discussed i think at an noac meeting uh which i couldn't attend uh doug grant presented at a table where we've got um six different scenarios okay yeah i mean you you showed us the graph you showed you represented that paper uh last time um and talked through the graph john you might remember yes and i i uh on on the record recording that uh robert tulip |
| 11:27 | produced of the meeting um i have made some comments on on what changes we need as a result of that meeting um this evening yeah and also on the cdr group um the priorities uh i i've put the cooling the arctic as the top priority for for the world uh then general cooling right okay so let's have another question so if you put update or something yeah uh on that's the scenarios isn't it yeah kind of yeah yeah oh no uh yeah i think we know we all know what that is okay that'd be good um yeah okay anything else then from |
| 12:23 | anyone so so okay all right then i think we could uh possibly uh let's okay so let's start here let's just see where we go with it um this article on nutrification um do you want us begin with it um chris yeah i mean the first half of the article is just talking about various things that wasn't the key thing i think i think the the thing to focus on was their proposal which is basically to dredge up deep sea sediments and spread them in the surface water currents in these hnlc or high nitrate low chlorophyll areas on |
| 13:07 | the ground that the nutrients in the sediments will fertilize uh the ocean um besides of practicalities which perhaps might come back to later but i think in more terms and more the sort of what will happen i think um one of the things he doesn't actually address although he does give a reference that's completely irrelevant is that he doesn't actually tell us anything at all about how much of these nutrients there are in the deepsea sediments the only reference he gives is actually to manganese nodules which is |
| 13:38 | hardly very helpful um and um so i i had a quick look in literature earlier today try and find out what was around all that and it's actually quite difficult it seems to easily pin down how much phosphorus and nitrogen there is in deep various types of deep sea sediments it seems like a super dredging activity it is and he's also because of the locations he's talking about he's talking of uh depths in excess of 3000 meters of water nearly all the time and it can be as much as 5000 meters of water in in |
| 14:12 | certainly some parts of those hnlc areas so practicalities will be tricky i would say shall we say not to speak of expensive but spreading and these we must remember these fine these bottom sediments are very fine grained some of them as little as a couple of microns diameter only so if you spread start spreading that around in surface waters they're going to hang around a long time settle very very slowly and spreading a load of sediment surface water is going to have some impacts on the primary productivity because you're |
| 14:44 | going to block light getting down into the lower parts of the surface mixed layer if you spread that around a lot he doesn't make clear how much he's talking about either which is perhaps not helpful because he might be meaning quite small quantities he might be meaning quite a lot i don't know so i think there's a lot of um it's a it's a very basic idea without much clarity about exactly what he's doing i think you'll also kill off a lot of filter feeders he'll just fill their guts up |
| 15:11 | with mud also if there's deep sea sediment what about all the carbon trapped in the sediment that's being re well exactly you're bringing all the stuff back to the surface that was you've hopefully sequestered in some cases you don't want him to dredging up the stuff you've just sunk ryan right exactly although he is talking of only these hnlt areas not in the ocean globally so which which means the southern ocean which would be a few tricky uh legislative issues there um the eastern equatorial pacific |
| 15:43 | uh which is certainly quite deep water and also close to the galapagos and the um sub-arctic pacific now some of that area is quite shallow and that there's a paper he quotes that says that some of these areas seem to get increased to productivity because they're getting stuff from the bottom well that's not exactly new there's been several studies to do with uh natural iron fertilization that showed that around the crozet and um kirkland islands in the indian ocean so it's that's a well-known uh |
| 16:15 | factor in fact continental shells generally will do that but most of the hnlc areas are actually very deep water not shallow so that's why you need this dredging i just think it's it's it's it's not a properly thought out idea i think it's just a concept that someone's had a light bulb moment but hasn't actually gone into the details it's actually you know what are the ins and outs of it what's the product actually you know will it actually conceivably work yeah i'll just add that bottom dredging |
| 16:47 | is one of the worst things you can do to benefit communities as the concerns with deepsea mining of course you'll stir up plumes of mud on the deep seabed which will hang around again for quite a long time yeah exactly what why not just take deep ocean water and bring that up with the nutrients in it well that would probably be a lot more sensible frankly than to bring the sediment and probably a lot easier to boot exactly yeah that's exactly what i thought and that's what brian's uh doing that's |
| 17:20 | isn't it your upwelling uh this is what what you've been talking about for such a long time yeah we're actually i'd say obtaining nutrients from the mesoplagic zone between 100 and 1000 meters deep and the deposition of the seaweed would occur in the abyssal zone which could be let's say 1 000 to 4000 meters deep yeah um right yeah what struck me about that uh i i read the article i didn't really see any links doing it so that's all i did was really they just thought they were bit that are underlined if you hover your |
| 17:56 | thing over it yeah okay i mean there were there were lots of those weren't there okay um and then it what it didn't or also didn't say i mean it is true that uh we discovered friends pointed out to me recently that actually most nutrients in the ocean do come from sediments but but but not by being you know uh disturbed anyway we can come back to that um and mostly shelf seas i think um but but but what struck me was there was no mention of of acidification um or deoxygenation so yeah these are our main concerns um |
| 18:43 | so but but the first thing was that there's there's so much focus on the direct air capture and and so it i thought it began very well saying you know how about free free energy from the sun and this is why we're all here and why we've been here for at least a year or more um because because of those very first the first four sort of tenets of the thing that the free energy free infrastructure you know self-building and one or two other things um cheap i think it wasn't it was another thing so it |
| 19:16 | started well and and so in terms of uh raising the awareness of potential ocean solutions i thought but it was it was good that it was there and it's really you know very readable to the average uh you know intelligent layman um but uh but clearly you know they've only just whoever that is that they've only just begun perhaps i should contact them and invite them to join us here and you know help them um if they want to join this sort of research effort because they've got the rights the right idea to begin with but clearly |
| 19:52 | yeah they haven't hit upon a solution uh that they've they've hit upon an initial solution that we've all pretty much rejected um yeah francis there anything you uh throwing you into it about the about nutrients from the sediments friends you're muted right now friends you're muted i have to click that thing yeah the the uh just an absolutely uh unnatural solution yeah yeah yeah to to disperse these fine uh the things and the ocean oh yes yeah and uh why why not taking uh the uh the deep water from exactly there is |
| 20:39 | enough uh nutrients there yeah but you read recently friends that uh the we had thought that most fertilization comes from dust but it turns out it's actually a very small percentage compared to the amount of nutrients that reach the ocean actually from the sediments the most nutrients come from the anaerobic sediments mainly from the sediments adjacent to the [Music] continents and from chef seeds because there is a much more reduced environment in the sediments than in the deep sea in the deep ocean yeah and the the sediments in continental |
| 21:28 | shelves are disturbed regularly by storms and animals and other things so which it's all part of the recycling of the nutrients that goes on in the shell seas living things collect those nutrients selectively so the little beasts over there actually pick up what they want and you know they get the good stuff for not what they don't need yeah and the res reduced environment in the sediments they make phosphorus and iron uh soluble and uh available yeah so from a chemistry point of view it's it's that's it i thought that was |
| 22:10 | rather interesting that you have this organic material that's uh in this reduced state because it's anaerobic um and that reduces the things like iron oxide then become ferric oxide because ferrous oxide which is soluble in water and similar principle for phosphates as well france just said iron f2 phosphate is much more soluble than the iron it's refreshing for instance right yeah yeah so um yeah not to discard no i mean yeah not to discard what people have just said about um uh animals getting what they want as |
| 22:49 | well so so um but that surprised us a couple of months ago i think didn't it friends that there's that much more nutrient reaches the ocean from sediments than from them from dice it's a small amount from dust yes but but i can't tell you now the the author of the yeah i mean i think i could find it in an email somewhere if somebody wants to know um it's just an incidental comment there um okay um anything else about that um this nutrification i think so yeah okay thanks for that chris um okay what about this sargassum |
| 23:41 | yeah seafields dot eco i think is the website and um victor cinema tech is obviously looking at the main scientist binding there's a team on there um their objective is to grow sargassum weed um and then use it for various materials and compress a large amount of it and sink it in the deep ocean interestingly victor was talking about a salinity pump um putting putting double tubes down and some system where the the saline difference in the ocean deep to the higher waters will actually once you prime it start a natural |
| 24:27 | cyclic system to draw up deep water nutrients so it's but as far as i know but i'm envisaging very large areas of the ocean covered in sargassum wheat um that may have navigational issues um fisheries issues but then mats of sargassum assumingly create habitats and the stuff's very fast growing there's lots of different sargassums a lot to be learned um and they anyway this lot peter got some funding in play and they have a um they also have a crypto carbon coin which is going on the blockchain which is is geared towards making a |
| 25:06 | financing source for it um just carbon.com is the site on that and i wonder if everybody else had seen it and looked at it yeah i'd come across it um saw their website a week or two ago i think a couple weeks ago um and in fact there's several other folks who are looking at sargassum for various reasons most of them are actually looking at it because it's a major problem in the caribbean vast amounts washing up on beaches and playing havoc with the tourist industry so most of them are looking to find ways |
| 25:38 | to do something with it before it hits the beaches because once it gets hits the beaches it gets messy with sand and it's really very difficult to do anything with it some of them are looking to sink it some of them are looking to get natural products and things out of it and stuff like that so the majority of people are looking to solve the problem of too much sargassum so people who are actually trying to promote sargassum might find a bit of pushback from those who are worried about having too much already |
| 26:07 | because there's a hell of a lot out there um as i understand it and it's still very early days i think this is the sarcasm belt it all starts over in west africa it goes across the atlantic uh to south america and then up into the caribbean and a large part the reason why there's been a massive amount particularly it's only started this started about 10 years ago i think or thereabouts they're thinking one of the things driving it is the um amazon's fertilizer and other stuff coming off |
| 26:37 | because that goes up the coast from south america in towards the caribbean and i think that's one of the things that's helped the sargassum to really take off in a big way and it is a really major issue and countries in the caribbean are spending a lot of time and effort and uneps look involved and other folks as well yeah in terms of sargassum farms way out in the deep ocean where they try to contain large acreage of this stuff don't compress it but i haven't i haven't dug deep into it but yeah the problem is you know you've |
| 27:12 | got 10 to 40 megatons of sargassum to deal with every year already naturally and so if you're trying to grow more you're going to run into a lot of political opposition until such time as you've used up the 10 to 40 natural occurring megatons yeah there is one group who's specifically trying to capture the stuff or before it arrives on the coast and using modelling and putting boys out and stuff so they know where it is and getting out and grabbing it and syncing it or doing other things with it then and that seems to be a very |
| 27:44 | sensible thing to try and do if you can make it work properly uh christian or they're based where were they the folks i came across were i think dominican republic i think they were based i know there's some other folks in some of the other caribbean islands or even mexico because it's hits mexico as well not just the caribbean islands there's quite a lot of folks involved in it right yeah and we started a com an operation in 2019 called c combinator that turned into carbon wave and it's endeavoring to make use of the |
| 28:22 | sargassum and reduce the methane emissions and they're making some progress i would say uh okay it's giving off methane as well and what you're saying right oh yeah they put it in a landfill and it goes in a landfill and it produces but on the beaches it gives there's other things other vapors and things come off so it's very unpleasant to be around when there's lots of this rotting on the beach there's other sort of organic vapors and stuff it's just yeah it's a sulfonated polysaccharides |
| 28:56 | that degrade into hydrogen sulfide yeah yeah isn't sargassum uh the staple for turtles i'm sure they some of it there's a fair amount of inorganic arsenic in hijiki which is the japanese word for sargassum so uh i think the hermetic dose is around 75 micrograms for humans per day and um hermetic dosage was that a safe dose yeah hermetic dose is a dose that improves your health and longevity rather than worsens it okay okay 76 micrograms of of this arsenic thing sorry yeah i saw a paper about that arsenic and sargassum a |
| 29:43 | little while ago i can't remember exactly where it was now but um there was a paper last year i think that looked at that i think it's it's a natural antibiotic and um sargassum is particularly effective at uh isolating it from sea water right so so you're saying turtles do eat it um but i mean you'd think that if that was a you know turtles thrived on this stuff then there'd be an explosion of turtle populations except they're all being killed with fishing i suspect turtles probably don't |
| 30:15 | reproduce fast enough to really oh yeah yeah yeah right no no okay besides besides the problems they have with their beaches being taken away where they put their eggs and all the rest of it yeah covered in sargassum poor little turtles can't get out yeah and and i've heard the uh theory put out that the extra nutrients from the amazon and orinoco river flows contributes significantly to the explosion of sargassum uh chris is that your understanding as well well it's only one theory um and i've seen it suggested yeah there's a |
| 30:47 | few papers there was a quite a significant paper in science last year here i think it was um but looked at how south sargassum had developed over the last decade yeah and they don't seem to think that is that with climate change could the actual subtropical atlantic ocean circulation have changed enough to uh cause a larger loop of sargassum to be proceeding from west africa across the atlantic i know that historically the third also see was a smaller containment but there's an interesting theory that um |
| 31:20 | now there's a a stronger coupling if you will of the subtropical north atlantic to west africa causing a more substantial loop of sargassum and an increasing magnitude of the sargasso sea if you will across the atlantic yeah yeah i think they have suggested some changes in the circulations as you say yeah if you've seen any papers on that chris i'd be interested uh i'll try and see i'm not sure i've seen papers on that before it may have been mentioned in another paper so there might be a |
| 31:50 | link right okay uh thank you we're going very fast this evening we might be over very soon um okay and so viktor smithercheck was involved with that brew yeah um victor seems to be well behind it um yeah yeah he gave a webinar last year that i saw live um i think it was about maybe about this time last year or a bit earlier even something like a year or so ago he was involved in a webinar which is talking about what to do with it where was the webinar do you recall uh i could probably find it if you want to send you the link |
| 32:38 | yeah that'd be excellent thank you chris thank you victor's message uh uh in the 19 in the 2010 or so uh he was involved in ocean fertilization experiments yeah same guy yeah and he's been attending the uh uh some of the hpac meetings i believe so you know the the monday meetings in the intervening mondays with these so yeah john listen you've you've you have your hand up did you want to speak about something i wasn't sure it was a big about that sorry that i should take it down again okay um okay |
| 33:39 | uh okay brian should we just just have at the thinks article yeah uh the latest issue of uh youtube of just have a think uh reviews the ucla paper that i posted in the link where they propose uh pumping massive amounts of sea water through some reactor and having some electrically precipitated calcium carbonate go out onto the seafloor as a result um and i had this to say as a rebuttal um let's see if i can find it here um sadly this ucla idea actually makes ocean acidification worse a single dissolved calcium ion ties up two carbon |
| 34:21 | dioxide ions as it as dissolved so calcium bicarbonate uh when you precipitate calcium carbonate you leave one of the carbonic acid molecules behind thereby increasing the concentration of unassociated carbonic acid remaining in the sea water reducing the buffering and making ocean acidification worse rather than better and then a better solution would be to fix the carbon biologically and sink it past a thousand meters so um i'm proposing that it's actually doing the wrong thing but yeah you know it's |
| 34:52 | surprising to me that uh these peer-reviewed papers are getting out and no one's mentioning them well you're measuring the issues yeah i i couldn't understand that paper either because i looked at it and i couldn't understand for example the same reasons why this was supposed to be a beneficial thing um there was a discussion about it a short one i think in on the um cdr google troops and one guy eventually said he thought he worked out that it was okay but i can't remember i'll see if i can find it and |
| 35:20 | he might be able to yeah i'd like to like to see that more detail thank you chris this is it here then um this is the link yeah that's it yeah yeah i mean it takes so much energy to pump that much seawater i mean that's one reason we use deep cycling for some of our work we save about a factor of 100 in energy and let the let the seaweeds do the hard work rather than trying to do it with renewable energy yeah yeah okay all right then um well i think we're done folks well was there something else there |
| 35:59 | wasn't anything else uh yeah oh sorry john's thing sorry yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay um let's just look at that again um that was this one here yeah yeah update on scenarios yeah yeah um just to briefly say that i sent you some uh comments on how the table might be uh improved as a result of the discussion we had so that for example the the road that we had i marked as um decarbonization and attributed it to ipcc uh we decided we'd change it to um decarbonization plus a little bit of cdr |
| 36:53 | to be uh to be fair on ipcc because they are saying now that uh some cdr will be required to to okay they've admitted that yeah yeah they've not just admitted it they said this is essential right yeah very good and i think that's quite interesting because um there's a paper i just came across uh recently about talking about moral hazard and so on and in fact there's a paper that um sean fitzgerald and robert chris wrote about moral hazard or moral duty uh which is uh i haven't read the paper |
| 37:30 | yet and he just seen it so i think that's the uh interesting uh aspect of the whole issue that um this so-called worry about mitigation deterrence is actually of itself causing a problem with cdr which is now of course deemed to be essential so um they're getting themselves have been a few knots but also um there's a document put out at the end of march by a group a whole load of uh environmental ngos and others that says that um basically he wants the ipc to acknowledge that reliance on cdr threatens irreversible harm |
| 38:08 | uh which i think's uh pushing the things far too far i don't know if you've seen that sorry who who's saying that reliance is i suspect it's been sort of stimulated by the likes of etc group or something like that i suspect i'm not sure okay thank you yeah um anyhow um going through the table um so this table you said you'd sent it to me john uh did you send it doug doug sent um a link out so you can look and look at the so do you want to look at that now you'd like me to share a screen would |
| 38:56 | you like me to share this screen yeah if you've got it there to show john i did make the changes that you asked me to make can people see this yep why is it not moving over see i got to somehow grab it to move it over get hold of the title bar or or maximize the problem okay here we go the menu is at the top of the thing is in the world okay so john which one were you talking about this one right here uh yeah that's right the the green curve and what did you want to do to it uh i sent a list of things and one of |
| 39:48 | them was to change that from complete decarbonization to net zero five oh yeah i remember that okay yeah zero by twenty fifty yeah my main it was i possibly suggested mainly through decarbonization is that what you want me to add under this say together i think that would be a good idea yeah say it again mainly through decarmenization mainly probably made some typos but um mainly yeah mainly okay not many mainly could coming sorry we'll get a chance to read all these other bits and pieces yeah well that's going on so um |
| 40:50 | so what uh what's important is is is to actually bring down the uh the amount of um greenhouse gases bring bring down the levels uh in the long term so that was the red curve um and the red dashed curve underneath uh had a specific uh specific target um 300 bpm by 2050 that might be for co2e but uh as far as i know um this is that this is f or c r is the proponent uh for this uh that's peter because the cask is lot and then for climate restoration yeah then the purple curve is for um uh |
| 41:53 | uh cooling to limit global warming uh in in a quicker faster than you could produce by reducing greenhouse gases and some regional cooling which would improve equitability i'm thinking for example of the himalayas we need to to increase the amount of ice on the himalayas because a lot of countries depend on well two billion people depend on the melt water for their livelihoods yeah um uh so that's important in in within a decade or two yeah whereas the blue curve is specifically for the arctic and we the argument is that there are some huge |
| 42:52 | risks uh we don't know when the catastrophic threshold is but it could be anytime soon um the the greenland ice sheet that's gis is showing signs of disintegration there's a collection of water under the ice uh water from the moulins it's warm warmish water so it's melting the ice from below and it's pooling in lake huge lakes under the ice and when it when such a kind of damned in lake bursts through it's likely to go under a glacier and caused the glacier to uh discharge an avalanche of |
| 43:45 | huge blocks so that's the kind of huge risk that of something that could happen anytime so the sooner you start cooling the arctic the better um now that's not the only catastrophe absolute catastrophe there could be a uh some kind of disruption of the amok um the atlantic meridian overturning circulation um and there could be well there already is uh behavior for of the jet stream uh causing um a lot of um weather extremes when the when the jet stream sticks in the place you can get heat domes uh and you can get drought long droughts |
| 44:45 | uh as in as we saw as they had in portland uh last last year yeah and and if you get us uh are sticking whether when it's raining and high humidity you can get the the worst um worst floods in china that uh in in their recorded history which is 5 000 years yeah right so so that's super urgent to do that um yeah and that so that's uh i i also uh put a kind of priority on uh in the discussion right on the ctr list yeah i mean this is an excellent list john this this this list you've got here um with the different columns to explain |
| 45:38 | you know you know all this claim and assumptions and the proponents and the immediate risks here yeah yeah um so has um and then i think yes and so you discussed it at the last at your hpac meeting and uh and um is has this been put on the hpac website um it's not on the h-pac uh website it's it'll be um doug at the moment doug uh has the copy on his his website okay um um i i've copied all my stuff to to noac because you do have cooling in the in the title yeah yeah and um uh ocean cooling is potentially very important |
| 46:39 | particularly for global cooling but there's also potential for cooling the arctic indirectly by by cooling the water flowing into the arctic from the atlantic and from the pacific uh and i would love to to get back to the e hux discussion that we we had and and see if we could actually get that that kind of cooling from phytoplankton dms emissions yeah causes a base can cause a very significant cooling effect which added on to stratospheric aerosol injection which i've discovered is is really quite benign if done |
| 47:30 | north of 50 degrees north um i fairly high mid to high latitude yep the stuff this so2 distributes itself northward uh smoothly and produces the kind of uniform cooling so nothing can be attributed uh directly no specific events can be attributed to what you're doing so it can't be used and it can't be used as a weapon or anything so it's very benign there's no problem with governance we've heard we've had this discussion john yeah um i'm just reminding you just how benign it is and then unfortunately very |
| 48:18 | few people seem to believe me yeah stephen salter wasn't too accepting of it was he i don't think he is he here today i haven't seen we didn't see him no i don't think he's here today yeah yeah well he's jesus competition to uh to his marine cloud brightening and i'm saying that we need both because we can't afford uh to make a mistake and if one doesn't work we want to hope that the other one does yeah yeah okay and we're we i mean we talk about this uh this is the same i'm afraid this |
| 48:54 | i'm gonna say pretty much the same thing i i usually say we talk we talk about this every two weeks um and we're we've we've had the you know many uh discussions and and some in some cases arguments but for the most part we we tend to agree on certainly agree on the need for uh we're in the unanimous which is why we're here on the need for cooling and cdr as well as emission reduction so claim i have a question for john tonight i can't find how to raise my hand um yep um the um i made a statement yesterday that |
| 49:29 | um putting the aerosols whichever trophospheric or stratosphere up above 50 degrees latitude would not migrate out of that region as long as we have a strong jet stream so if we don't have a strong you know the gradient the temperature gradient is not strong and the jet stream is wandering around is that not true well um i'm relying on what people have said about the brewer dobson circulation which is above the jet stream uh as far as i know the jet stream doesn't change that brew dobson circulation except it can be kind of |
| 50:12 | breakouts that's good to know thank you yeah so i have seen a diagram which shows some kind of spillage from the uh from the troposphere into the uh into the stratosphere um our big storms could do that so really stratospheric injection might be safer than tropospheric marine cloud writing because if if the jet stream is wandering around it will leak out whereas if it's up in the stratosphere it will be contained right yeah you can stop a lot faster than the other yeah there there is a also an argument which |
| 50:59 | i think came from might have come from uh um david keith uh that the um the marine cloud brightening is blotchy whereas you actually want a smooth cooling if you can get it and that's what so2 in the stratosphere gives you because because the stuff just spreads spreads around but it's it's generally moving uh slowly northwards in the process of spreading around this this to me is very counter-intuitive and i made a misstatement the other day so i think we need to make that real clear in some sort of document that the stratosphere |
| 51:42 | is actually safer than the troposphere in the arctic yeah um our conclusion is is it is very clear that there are you know these two big two or three big tipping points in the arctic and governments just do not seem to be aware of it and one of the groups of government of uh government um people uh who really should know of the elected council and i wonder whether we could give a kind of presentation to the out of the council saying look this is what uh you're all keen to exploit the arctic but look this is what the effect is of letting the arctic |
| 52:30 | melt down continue you're putting the whole world at risk including a lot of your own infants infrastructure and flood defenses and all that kind of thing right well so i want to wonder whether an oac could uh could help with a making a presentation to the arctic council or something one of us i mean this is um so who is the arctic council festival john oh well they're a group of people russia canada all the states around the arctic right okay finland and so forth right yeah um and there are also observers from |
| 53:18 | outside including uh japan for example in china and china yeah yeah and the uk yeah and the uk yeah well i mean i happily make a presentation if somebody help me uh put it together um and then say yes i'm from noac um noac is uh attracts distinguished uh people you know scientists and so forth uh every every fortnight so um either me or some or perhaps a joint presentation would you know who to contact john the arctic council um i didn't know i i've not really started on this one but um why don't you |
| 54:03 | have a go then have a go see if you can get an answer from them so cli clive let me just throw something out here the other day bernie sanders had an interview with norway's ambassador and they talked about all the different issues that bernie sanders is involved with but it occurred to me that that ambassador probably has a connection to the arctic council so i reached out to her i didn't make contact i got some sort of receptionist probably in norway i'm not sure who said write an email so she said write an email to the to the |
| 54:38 | embassy so we need to write a very short email to the embassy making an introduction and also another approach would be through the sammy i met a couple of sami women at standing rock in 2016 2016 or so so i'm trying to reach out to them that might be two ways to get the indigenous people behind you've got to feel this out and make sure they're always important but uh i mean they're the sami are right up at the edge of the edge of the world they're at the top they're the ones who stopped the uh the |
| 55:12 | the recent sir experiment so i don't like your chances of turning them around well okay so i'm talking to two young ladies not not the sami but two young ladies who might they ended up at standing rock so and they want to support indigenous people around the world so their their attitude might be different from their leadership so i'm thinking if i could get to them and find out what they think they might be an ally to help us get to the ambassador and you know write this email whatever i think that might be an approach okay so |
| 55:49 | i'm going to continue to pursue that that connection yeah i'm just looking at the um wikipedia article about the arctic council and there's actually six indigenous arctic communities have permanent participant status it says uh including people the inuit people from the sami the russian indigenous peoples and so on so there's a there's a whole raft of of those folks involved already but there doesn't seem to be any um there are some ngos included apparently with uh like iucn and a few others |
| 56:28 | if you look at the wikipedia article on it you'll find it okay thank you um okay before we go um i've um we've got sort of half an hour left i'm okay what's going through my mind my mind now is um i mean forgive me chris um many times we've sort of uh we've proposed things and you've said yeah that won't work because of this or that um uh and look again at this or that i mean you've you've it's been your with your job your whole career as far as i know or for most of it at least um |
| 57:10 | uh so but but or anyone like with that uh uh that's been does that experience as quick so what's what would be i'm just trying to sort of think out outside the box here a little bit if if you uh let's say um somebody from the u.s government or from the uk coming came to you and said look you know we've got 10 billion dollars to spare on ocean research we think that the ocean might uh um be used to help with on climate change with the huge cdr what do you have any idea what you would advise you |
| 57:44 | know how they should spend that that ten ten you know a large amount of money basically um well i think first of all if they were spending that much on the ocean these defending an awful lot more on the non-ocean elements of the climate uh problem anyway but let's just say it's a large amount of money well obviously for a start the uh nascm the u. |
| 58:07 | s organization has already proposed about half a billions research on ocean cdr things already so you'd certainly make a start with some of that but that doesn't cover everything of course there are others which aren't covered under those issues that they identified i think at the moment you need to make sure you look at all potential options and not some people want to focus it all down or do one thing and i think that's probably wrong because i think for the we really don't know enough a lot of these ideas are still quite |
| 58:42 | early we don't know enough about the science to be sure what will work and what won't or even if some things work how effective it'll be how costly it'll be in all the other aspects so i think you need to to do a widespread sort of approach but still within the bounds of what looks potentially realistic right so i mean we are myself and and you know i first learned about ferret chloride from sev um and i'll come to you in a minute brian um and then learn more from friends and so forth that it's |
| 59:17 | very it could be quite you know doubling or tripling the amount of iron that reaches the ocean um you know it gets there from forest fires and so forth and dust as we know um very very diffuse and you've said um yes but just you'd get it you'd grow some phytoplankton immediately gobbled up by by um you know zooplankton tiny salps and things as it said in that article actually interestingly um but that what i suspect and from discussions we've had is that if you have this vertical migration it brings up |
| 59:54 | nutrients from you know they bring up nutrients in their bodies and then we have this predation i think we might have discussed this a little bit before do do you see any uh uh um value in spending money on researching that i mean this is this is what we we think will work so that's happening already of course i mean those animals are doing that already yeah yeah um if you uh increase the productivity of the surface waters uh a proportion not a large proportion perhaps will be end up going down into the deeper |
| 1:00:29 | ocean uh not all of it by any means uh version of the irony you're saying no i'm a proportion of the of the contouring of carbon carbon yeah um because uh a proportion of the carbon goes down there now so if you increase the total yeah the percentage going down is still probably going to be the same or they'd just be a percentage of a bigger number yeah um so you will probably increase that um there will be potential consequences there's the increasing uh increasing the productivity of the certification will have some knock-on |
| 1:01:06 | effect many which i'm sure i haven't got a clue what will they be but there are risks i don't think the toxic hour will bloom is probably a big one personally but that's just my opinion yeah i think things like reducing the oxygen in the subsurface layers is probably more significant um and i still feel that the increase in the productivity surface ocean is a very inefficient means to sequester carbon in the devotion i think brian's concept is a much more efficient process to get carbon down quickly |
| 1:01:41 | into the deep water uh and where it'll be there for of the order of thousand years or more macro macro algae well yeah yeah it'll probably be like algae yeah so you know if you can get it into the deep water it'll be there for quite a long time yeah there are other techniques personally i'd put a lot more i'd put a lot more effort in ocean afternization notice also the planetary technologies we're also an ex-prize winner like brian there was three people there's brian's group there's planetary and uh who was |
| 1:02:13 | the other one can't remember was it sea fields i can't remember it was the third it was a third uh in addition there was a third ocean one um i think the ocean yeah planetary hydrogen yeah and then uh i think there was anyway they're called planetary now they've dropped the hydrogen apparently even though they're producing argent um but um ocean alkalinization i think has a lot of benefits because if you can do it properly it counters ocean acidification and you also sequester carbon for very long |
| 1:02:53 | periods of time of the order of 10 000 years or more as opposed to shorter periods which you would do with biological carbon and so it has those benefits of course practicalities are another matter we'll have to wait and see how it works out but planetary scheme actually has multiple benefits i don't know if you've read what they're doing they're actually using mime waste so they're going to be actually dealing with mine waste and getting rid of that they're going to produce metals they're |
| 1:03:20 | going to produce hydrogen and they're hoping to produce oceanic ionization so they got four different benefits out of their scheme if it works right so it has looks to me quite uh interesting i should say i'm not saying it's going to work in the end of the day but uh it's certainly interesting anyway thank you yeah thank you please okay well a few minutes ago we were talking about uh how do you spend 10 billion yeah um going back to that point yeah um so you know there's a there's some essential principles |
| 1:03:56 | of terrestrial permaculture that i think we should consider applying to the sea and they include um that if you're going interventions are expensive and if you're going to actually do some kind of interventions or intervention you should actually achieve three or four substantial benefits um and thus integral solutions um are desirable now the first billion we may need to actually check out a hundred different approaches and research those and investigate them which i think is helpful but then concurrently on a scale out |
| 1:04:30 | one of the um suggestions we would make is if if intervention on scale is being done that it have multiple key benefits and we think that food security globally is going to be an essential benefit in a climate disrupted world they're more than a billion people who depend on the sea for their protein and we've seen a decimation of the big fish in the ocean with most of the marine pescetarian biomass harvested from the ocean in the last 30 years more than 50 so there's some serious uh food security challenges ahead of us being able to |
| 1:05:07 | address those as essential and then secondly um not we're talking ultimately not only about enough food for humanity but in a warmed and stratified ocean in a climate disrupted world there is far less productivity in this in the tropics and and subtropics and seasonally in temperate waters on an increasing um scale and thus um enough food for nature as well as enough food for humanity is going to be an essential aspect and then finally this carbon export is essential so at least with marine permaculture we aim |
| 1:05:41 | to address these fundamental societal and ecosystem needs as well as trying to address a carbon balance situation and thus i would encourage us to consider integrative approaches that achieve three or four benefits for one um let's say intervention price yeah if i could just come quickly back um not to concentrate anything bran said but actually i think there's one very important thing you can't just throw vast amounts of money at looking at ocean interventions you actually need to know more about the ocean itself to make |
| 1:06:12 | those understandable so i would throw a lot of that money into basic scientific research on the ocean because if you understand that better you've got a better chance of some of those ocean interventions actually working and i think the other thing i'd also send some of that money to try and deal with some of the big challenges that are causing problems in the ocean you know things like overfishing and all the other things that we know about are causing a big big problems which would help with uh some of the climate-related |
| 1:06:38 | issues some of them would anyway uh so i think there's those two things i would add i wouldn't put it all into looking at ocean interventions right yeah and i agree with chris on that that there needs to be a reasonable allocation a billion dollars is a healthy allocation of that sort of thing and um and and so i will act i will actually and additionally mention um the rio declaration in 1992 which in section 15 said that we must not let sign some level of scientific uncertainty be a cause for an action and |
| 1:07:09 | thus moving forward on all these fronts i think is is worthwhile we need to do something faster than sadly you know i'm halfway through the ministry for the future and their chapter one scenario already seems to be playing out to some extent with india and pakistan and the heat wave they've just experienced and you know i think we need to actively work to avoid um wet bulb temperature of 35 and the loss of you know uh uh humanity and nature that would ensue so um anyway fingers crossed we can avoid that outcome yeah just quickly |
| 1:07:42 | following up one of brian's point in my experience all decisions on the environment have degrees of uncertainty always you never have certainty ever yeah fair enough yeah yeah uh one of your points uh chris which i which i thought was great um uh research what areas what what is the uncertainties of understanding in the ocean or sort of even if broad brush headings would you this is the whole suite really frankly biology chemistry physics you know that wraps it up pretty much i think that without going into great details i |
| 1:08:21 | probably would know enough about some of them anyway but um i think you much better basic understanding of the processes and how things work would be of extremely useful um to because that'll reveal things about how the ocean works that will enable us to make sure that other things we do will work properly or we'll decide not to do that maybe because of what we understand right so can you list even just one one thing that's that we don't know how it works that would be so good to know that would |
| 1:08:51 | be helpful um [Music] well there's the saying and i'm sure some of you have heard this that we know more about the back side of the moon than we do about the bottom of the ocean yeah and that's absolutely true you know if uh i think i did see a figure and i can't remember what it is now someone said the area of the ocean that we actually have surveyed by that i don't mean just doing hydrographic for depth i mean looking at what's down there is i can't remember how many zeros after the decimal point but there's a lot of |
| 1:09:22 | zeros before you get to the actual number uh it's a tiny amount one one thing which we we don't know though we've got some thoughts about is why the mid levels in the ocean have more oxygen in them than we can we can uh work out why it's there well i've got a theory for that some some alliance hasn't yet some of that's from the because you're getting uh deep water sinking from the surface in cold regions which has a lot of oxygen in it so as brian has mentioned before the deep water in some parts of the |
| 1:10:01 | ocean has more oxygen than anywhere else because it's sunk in the arctic where because it's cold it takes a lot of oxygen up and uh takes it all the way down to the south atlantic yep that's what my eye shields is meant to do too uh-huh but but but the the i understand the scientific community doesn't really know why the mid middle of ocean waters have got so much oxygen in them they should have less because of of eutrophication and bacterial action well you know it obviously depends where you're talking |
| 1:10:33 | about because certainly certain mid depths of the ocean are actually deoxygenating at the moment and the area of those regions is increasing both laterally and vertically yeah but we we don't fully know the science no we know bits but we don't know at all yeah right yeah yeah i would like to um have more research and measurement on what's going on in the arctic because we don't really know uh enough to be sure of what would work um the we don't know exactly how much albedo has been lost estimates vary |
| 1:11:20 | hugely and do we actually need to counter that the heating effect of the elbow albedo to if we want to save the sea ice isn't that a definite yes though that would definitely does need to be counted john well steven salter doesn't think so well he he thinks it should be counted with um by clearing clouds in the winter um but but he he's done his calculation on marine cloud brightening on the basis of producing enough cooling power to to freeze some uh freezer some water yep not on countering the um the albedo loss |
| 1:12:12 | which of course is contributing to the uh you know or is that i mean if he was here he might positive positive feedback yeah if he was here he might say also make clouds in the summer i can't remember if that was oh yeah i want to you know eat yeah yeah i mean he he he has proposals for for cooling helping to cool the object by removing clouds in winter yeah anyway so what you're saying is is the albedo in the in the arctic do more research on the albedo yeah we don't know what the the effect of earth hanging loads of |
| 1:12:46 | broken ice that must reduce the albedo but we don't know how much it doesn't exactly how much and that kind of thing so we don't know we don't have the the engineering parameters that you require for any kind of solution so they're not strong so i mean chris was saying just now you never nothing's ever you know completely certain um but yes you're saying that it's there's there's still a high level of uncertainty you wouldn't really know you know how much to stratospheric whatever yeah what a |
| 1:13:19 | cooling influence to do um okay yep i'll take that um i thought that these satellites would be giving you giving us fairly good measures of uh of albedo in the arctic regard that a lot of it's cloud covered and therefore you can't tell it's whether it's caused by ice or cloud uh yeah yes prob probably but we're not seeing any papers coming out any research being done it's quite extraordinary isn't it yeah quite extraordinary you know one of the key factors for human the continuance of our |
| 1:13:58 | research isn't being done in that area of civilization as we know it yeah huge amounts of money have been spent on climate research you have all these glaciologists you're always there always people going down to antarctica doing all kinds of things um but you're saying it's a that you know if they're doing that they should also be measuring the albedo of the arctic john yeah and and and also you know what what exactly is happening to the bridge in overturning circulation yeah you know the vortexes |
| 1:14:30 | have disappeared so something's happening and and what's the effect and how much is that has it been disrupted by general warming in the in the arctic what's happening to the the atlantic water um yeah these are very different things aren't they that the polar vortex and the overturning circulation which does yes occasionally you see things weakening sorry bru yeah so that pace project online i just put the link in there for the plankton aerosol cloud ocean ecosystems are coming online on 2024 which is is designed to measure the the |
| 1:15:12 | albedo the oceans primarily i mean it's ah it's it's going to be really useful information when it comes through right yeah so so that um so there's that and then you've got um uh meet at methane we don't really have much measuring measurement of of the main thing they don't know where it's coming from well there's this controversy whether it's coming from some of it is coming from underneath the purple frost and through perforations in the permafrost and so on it's actually |
| 1:15:50 | coming from the pentafrost itself so you know there's a huge question there yeah um uh uh and then there's the best behavior of the jet stream uh it seems to have gone very quiet there was was really good research showing how the jet stream behavior was changing as a result of the reduced gradient between the the arctic and the and the tropics um uh with jennifer francis but then she's joined the the scientific american staff and her last article had hardly a mention of it yeah and it was about um storms and things you'd thought |
| 1:16:38 | she would be leading the way but i think it's kind of well known isn't it now among scientists that that that this lack of uh gradient steep gradient is very much weakened that's also going to have this undulating jet stream for for the physical future it should be well known that michael mann commented the other day the models don't capture this he says that's certainly what's happening and what's causing the weather extremes and sometimes climate change effectively because if you have |
| 1:17:17 | sticking in one place regularly you've changed to climate yeah as we've seen in parts of america okay yeah um so lots of research on that would be would be good and and a bit of reality in what's going on let's find out the facts a bit of reality okay yeah i'm also thinking about about the ocean i mean friends is there anything you'd like to just say briefly about what's uh could be better known about the ocean in terms of understanding the ocean how it works i would uh try to find out why the southern ocean has so |
| 1:18:05 | less uh iron for instance for instance yeah yeah um okay i mean and and you've we've been putting together with we keep getting distracted um that the the geological view um there know so much limestone in the continents and in sediments uh i mean millions of gigatons of this stuff um and where did it come from i mean there's also limestone on on mars apparently but it seems to have come from ocean sediments um and people say you could if you every time you make calcium carbonate you're emitting co2 but somehow the co2 |
| 1:18:52 | was very very thick in the early atmosphere and the earth first formed 70 co2 in the atmosphere and it all got pulled into the ocean we had an ocean like heavens and it didn't just boil away as happened on venus it pulled in uh this co2 then somehow the chemistry was able to keep providing alkal you know basic rock or alkalinity whatever we want to call it to make turn this bicarbonate into solid carbonate which then over literally billions of years got pushed down and made into marble and limestone and um and we still have oceans that are |
| 1:19:26 | slightly alkaline um the the most people think there is a cycle of carbon but it is now really cycle carbon is emitted from the mantle and it's deposed in the in the continents that's all yeah it goes into the ocean it becomes a thousand carbon there are two two separate carbon cycles as a long-term cycle which is what you've just been talking about there's also the shortest cycle of what's going on in the ocean which is very difficult yeah yeah so there's a short term carbon cycle that was his round you know |
| 1:20:19 | every few years and then um so i thought about it's been interesting for me to discover that uh yeah the the long term this carbon gets taken into the into sediments it becomes solid carbon and gets depleted from the carbon you know the very very quick carbon cycle would eventually run out of carbon we wouldn't happen definitely i think it comes out permanently yeah so um and uh we wouldn't be here if the mantle didn't keep providing the feedstock well volcanoes keep shoving out lots of it yeah they do yeah |
| 1:20:56 | as it adapts over time to create its own environment so the balance is constantly changing to adapt to what's going on that's how it it happened so we've moved from the the co2 atmosphere to the atmosphere we have now so the distribution of life will have changed oh yeah as it's as it's actually geo-engineered the planet to its own purposes constantly evolving and moving forward yeah it's geoengineered the planet um well has it or has it been it's it's luckily miraculously has remained uh habitable i suppose |
| 1:21:37 | because life holds on and evolves so strongly um but uh the great oxidation event uh i mentioned this a few a few of these ago didn't i um was pretty catastrophic for a lot of uh organisms and for life as it was at the time life as a whole goes through these cycles and it's constantly advancing yeah oh yeah yeah so we anticipate that somewhere very deep in the in the community dna of us all and every other living thing is this forward movement life just follows patterns yeah somehow adapt yeah yeah so for for me it would be the this |
| 1:22:18 | what do you think about sulfate any what does anyone brew or brian or chris uh or or anyone sulfate redux so this is but so franz talks about microbes that uh reduce um that um that's right they reduce they use sulfate so instead of oxygen they use sulfate um and uh they uh end up quite inefficiently making the carbon that doesn't re re-mineralize it ends up as chara i called it saproper in the past um chris should have called it carriages there's huge amounts of carriage in um i mean we have these huge slate fields see |
| 1:22:57 | there's huge shale fields and there's you know there's a huge area of slate all over um in parts of north wales that people put it on their roofs it's full of sort of tarry stuff so that there are processes that take carbon down and don't remineralize it and it just stays there on the seabed and becomes you know a mineral um yeah well if you look in the anoxic areas of the ocean that's the sort of places in the long run that would presumably produce that so places like the black sea and deep trenches that are anoxic in |
| 1:23:28 | certain areas um that's where those things will be mineralized in the long run in the way you described i suspecting if you go back in a few million or a billion years the black sea sediments will probably be a nice organic carbon-rich slate or shale somewhere yeah so what do you think about um chris some and then we better finish quite soon um using a small part of the ocean whether it's the black sea or sun or extending existing part of the ocean that's already you know anoxic in the water itself uh in parts of it just |
| 1:24:03 | extending that so you can have a lot of growth but you can make a lot of growth very cheaply and then uh it just sinks and there isn't any oxygen anyway so it just goes to the bottom and ends up as this black stuff most of those anoxic areas are geomorphologically confined i. |
| 1:24:25 | e this they're within a trench or some other structure the black sea you can't just expand them because if you do they spill over into the ocean areas as open ocean areas perhaps um so they're mostly confined zones in one form or another bottom of some fields for example another area that there you'll find those sort of situations um so unless you can find uh most of those deep situations will probably be reduced in oxygen at least if not anoxic just because if they're that deep and cut off then they're not getting exchange of water and so the the |
| 1:24:57 | oxygen will get used up well i think there's parts of isn't it west namibia on the west yeah they only got a west coast something and and parts of even uh the north west coast of the usa and possibly canada they have these dead zones because of so much upwelling there's so much productivity that it depletes all the oxygen yeah i think it's also clearly depleted in oxygen i think so yeah i mean what the baltic yeah the baltic sea the baltic is another area yes it's has parts of it are not all of it but parts |
| 1:25:28 | of the deeper parts can be certainly yeah um yeah i mean the i'm not too familiar with namibia i know they do have problems with sulfide waters in fact as for a completely different reason i came across a paper that said when they were dredging around wolves bay they had to take precautions on the dredger because of the hydrogen sulfide levels otherwise would have been killing the crew so they had to have the accommodations airtight and so on so that they didn't get exposed to lethal levels of hydrogen |
| 1:25:57 | sulfide when they dredged the sediment so yeah but that was the stuff was in the sediment there not in the water in relatively shallow water i mean what would you think if somebody said look you know we've got a but we've just received whatever a big large amount of money and we're going to extend you know we're going to take this this waters where it's they're already very low in oxygen and we're going to extend that um and uh so that we're going to you know capture a lot of carbon it's |
| 1:26:27 | going to end up as solid sort of carriages or something at that but probably don't need to extend it you probably just need to instead to increase the amount within the zones you're talking about okay yeah for example the black sea i mean the black sea is only oxic in its top 300 meters or so of water everything below that is anoxic it's one reason why it's the best place to find any ancient shipwrecks because they just don't get degraded right um and so you've got a huge volume of water there |
| 1:26:56 | and the seabed which is all the noxic and you probably could add quite a lot of carbons there without affecting the environment at all right the black sea countries would be happy of course i have no idea but conceptually at least it could be a large very substantial store of carbon yeah so i i wouldn't look to expand it laterally to try and increase this what you're putting into the places that are already anoxic okay okay there's the reason uh is the uh stratification of the black sea because it has |
| 1:27:33 | on the surface a rather uh assault uh not so much solder uh on the on the surface i think it is stratified but it's also because it's contained and because it also has significant runoff from lots of major rivers bringing stuff in from all around it um which presumably bring quite a lot of organic matter in um but also its geological history is quite interesting if you look into it because originally it was a freshwater lake at a much lower level than it is now it's only when the sea came in as sea levels rose that it |
| 1:28:11 | became something like its current state so it's a comparatively recent phenomenon and by recent i mean geologically recent so we're probably talking about i don't know 10 000 years ish or something of that order when all this started to happen before that it was a freshwater lake and presumably was quite a nice little place to go and fish and everything else right that would have changed over 100 000 year cycles it was a saltwater which came from the yeah yeah this wouldn't be against such a thing then chris |
| 1:28:49 | you're saying you know intensify something that's already somewhat anoxic um you you're not against it you don't you wouldn't say no no you can't do that um well i mean assuming that other things aren't preferable then yes i mean that's always going to be the case though you that you'd have to look at the sort of pros and cons compared to other options and see what works out you think is the the best option in terms of both scale practicality costs and everything else whether you get it past the relevant |
| 1:29:20 | authorities i have no idea but um i think that there is a case if you i mean after all on land we have places called landfill sites where we don't pull our waste yeah yeah to contain now the sea of course is is rather more um mobile than the land so you can't contain things generally within the sea as easy as you can on land but you can physically restrict it but if you're talking of something like the black sea type environment then that would be relatively restricted so conceptually why should we not use |
| 1:29:55 | areas of the ocean uh equivalent to a landfill site on land if you like in a very broad sense where we sacrifice a certain area you can you can have uh make separable also in uh an oxygen you don't need the the water above the sediment anoxic it's the same like a landfill on land above the landfill you have oxic conditions in the air but but in in the black sea it wouldn't matter whether you i i was just getting carbon in whatever means you want without i don't speak from the black sea i speak from uh from |
| 1:30:47 | a flat uh from flat areas in the ocean from uh south seas and uh adjacent to continent well i think if you're starting to you want to change certain areas of the seabed completely by putting it all sort of propeller carriage in all over areas that don't have it then i think you will have a problem and you will find not many people will be likely to support you i suspect there are huge areas which rather shelf conditions which are not near a continent like a huge continental i don't know i don't know where you're |
| 1:31:28 | referring to well no for instance between uh australia and new zealand there are huge areas which are not uh which are shaft conditions well sure there's lots of areas that are not shelf conditions still doesn't mean people will be happy for you to fill them up when they're to change them radically i think a radical change is going to be much more problematic than than something that doesn't change it radically i think they have these conditions in the settlement if they already if they already have such areas that |
| 1:32:03 | that material on it that is different to changing it which is what i thought you were intending yeah yeah i mean that's right friends we know we've just been saying that uh sediments are anoxic and so you know any organic carbon and shelf sediments that's how they are so organic i don't see it i don't see why why there couldn't be a stored for instance my crawler gear and so on that that you don't need the the deep ocean for that on shelf sediment you can do it in itself regions most |
| 1:32:41 | shell seas are well exploited though by man for a wide variety of activities and so you would be probably interfering with at least some of those so i think that would be quite challenging you have to pick a shelf c where nobody's doing much uh i think you'd be lucky to find one frankly really well you know because that's where most of the expansion in in the effort in fact people are now expanding obviously a lot more into the deep ocean because the shelf seas have been you know lots of folks are already doing things there and |
| 1:33:13 | they want to find other areas to do fishing and so on they've cleaned out all the fish and so they're looking somewhere else yeah yeah uh okay we'll better go soon uh brian you've got your hand up um let's just see if you anything from brian then we'll you've still got your hand up brian there is a um thing i wanted to point out and that is that whatever carbon we manage to sink as carbonic acid into the middle and deep sea at depths between uh 1 and 3. |
| 1:33:44 | 5 kilometers there's actually a large amount of limestone and calcium carbonate sediments that will actually incrementally dissolve and buffer the increased ocean acidification acidity at depth and so it's important to recognize this enormous buffering capacity of calcium carbonate sediments above the um dissolution depth of around 3. |
| 1:34:11 | 5 kilometers interesting yeah thank you and so it seems like a very and then once you do manage to dissolve the sediments the sequestration of carbon in the middle and deep sea becomes quasi-permanent because it's in um chemical equilibrium as uh calcium bicarbonate yeah yeah that's what the ice shields system depends on you you take you take down the co2 and oxygenated brine onto the seabed where it's in intimate contact with those seaweed carbonates which produce bicarbonate which reduce acidity and store it for long |
| 1:34:52 | excellent excellent okay well very good thank you very much everyone uh all very interesting um see you again in a couple of weeks any last word from anyone nope that's it see you see you in a couple of weeks well done again brian that's well richly deserved yeah well thank you it's enjoyable thank you bye thank you all right see you all bye manager bye everyone brian you've got turned sideways yeah i'm just uh i'm just capturing some of the chat i don't know if you normally do but just uh yeah |
| 1:35:50 | yeah that's great you normally capture that as well uh it see it leaves me a file it makes a folder and there's a little file called chat.txt so i just i love your summaries every two weeks i'm looking forward to discussing the void paper in two weeks i will have finished the blue economy carbon panel by then great great stuff excellent great stuff thank you see you in a couple weeks you too brian bye always good to see you bye bye guys bye bye manager are you still there manager |