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| 00:27 | hi sev good morning morning are you keeping i'm going well uh keep keeping covered free and uh and fairly warm in my little mountain retreat i just got the wood stove started going and i hope it hope it takes before it gets too cold but uh yeah are you allowed wood stoves where you are or not probably not yeah i think so oh yes yes in london uh yeah not well london's smoked meant to be smokeless yes that's right not in london that's right yeah yeah we just have barbecues that to annoy each other in back gardens and things |
| 01:13 | hi guys hey dermot hello hi devin hi john hi friends oh gosh everyone's here yeah hi class that's it good group work that's great yeah hi grant hi there i will go incognito as i'm still eating my lunch but i listen with with pleasure thank you okay thank you sure brian we missed you last time sorry we missed you last time yes sorry for my absence well i want sometimes i wonder if i if i'd send these uh reminders out too early or too late that that uh it sort of upsets people's diaries a bit is that the case |
| 02:08 | or something else i keep hoping for calendar entries if there's some way i can assist let me know well there's that i sent one out that uh should go into your calendar uh it's a fortnightly thing it should be in the calendar but i can send it out again brian yeah it seems odd i it doesn't appear in the google calendar and that means that it either gets uh either the email is found or i've tried to create my own calendar entry and sometimes it's off by a week right um i s so i may have been sending it out as |
| 02:41 | an outlook uh file rather than you know a google thing i don't really they seem to be different things so perhaps if i send out a google one generally yes that would help that would actually work well if um i think it might help other people as well help other people yeah yeah it's not you know we've been not to be the only one around brian yeah okay uh well uh let's get started everyone uh so uh sev has some ideas let's just go to our usual thing i'd call it threats from the hydrogen economy |
| 03:20 | threats from the hydrogen economy and friends seem to be keen to hear about that yes i find this seem very good so this is are you going to say it's a hydrogen i hadn't even realized it's a greenhouse gas so there isn't much of it in the atmosphere at the minute but there could end up being i suppose it drifts to the top very quickly but very very leaky yes yes um and uh so if it makes lots of water in the stratosphere that's not good either um but so we'll get to that um i've knocked up a slide |
| 04:06 | on a new type of aerosol a new aerosol that franz uh and i have well we've just filed some a patent on it it's called tier so let's uh it's called titanium oxide aerosol um and we think it's we want people to hear about it to see what your response is um so because it can whiten clout it can make bright white clouds and it can be used to cover uh melting ice that's gone a bit dark from biofilms and moss and or in danger of it um and so we think it could be very powerful indeed um titanium oxide aerosol |
| 04:53 | uh okay anything else for anyone to talk about can we have an update on seaweed from brian is that or just who would that be from sev ron yeah yeah seaweed is growing uh we're you know two steps forward one step back um we're aiming for a tenth of a hectare this year and a full hectare next year and exponential scaling thereafter okay but there was some uh recent papers out questioning the the uh cdr effect of it i think yeah that those uh arguments are speeches and they're not based upon the laws of physics or by geochemistry but |
| 05:45 | i'd like to hear i'd like to hear your rebuttals that sounds good happy to discuss that uh right so what we call that um rebuttals all right yeah okay that'll do yeah okay anything else um i've been trying to look into france's objection to uh sai right very good so i can report on how far i've got and still sending out questions to people right answers right um sai affecting oxidative power of atmosphere that's right yeah right okay that's probably enough unless there's anything else it can always have a co |
| 06:49 | we could always have a question or something that's you haven't really understood very well or doesn't seem doesn't fit well with you or anything at all this is this these meetings are for anyone and for every any anything um of course within the general uh subject of nature-based ocean atmospheric calling could grant give us an update on [Music] his method on his method yeah granted that have you got a sufficient to me that's the most promising of all the methods we've had so far the uh the sort of coca litter four |
| 07:28 | thing uh are you able to do that grant us now would now be a good time grant said he was going to go incognito because he's eating food at the minute um he's in the middle of a mouthful he's in the middle of a mouthful so that's just you're right yeah yes i would be able to give you an update on that john okay excellent thank you very much grant okay we'll not do that one first then right um okay um and chris vivian's wasn't going to be here this week okay let's hear from you for uh sam if |
| 08:06 | that's okay yeah okay um well i'll just put the the link up to the to the paper um uh which which caused my concern um why is that oh there we go there we go now what this is talking about is that um the hydrogen economy which many are avoiding has some fairly serious downsides in the sense that hydrogen storage and transport is highly leaky hydrogen will escape even through through steel and most materials being such a small gas and when it gets out in the atmosphere it it reacts with hydroxide ions which means to say they reduce |
| 09:10 | the effect of methane oxidation in the air and so iso and things like it are threatened now that's that's bad we do need hydrogen but we don't need to transport and and store hydrogen in the gas form in the in the hydrogen form in the you know h2 form if we instead use methane natural gas as the source of the the no emissions source of hydrogen by using plasma torches to separate out the black carbon nano carbon from the hydrogen we can use our existing uh natural gas pipelines and shipping and whatever to move the hydrogen around the world |
| 10:12 | and you only when a company wants to use it it can use it on site on demand if there is a supply of renewable energy coming to it from from a for instance a high voltage direct current line and that seems like a whole lot better way of having our cake and eating it and um that's basically what my my sunny scheme recommends um and i throw it then open to to comments and questions well not just use the natural gas rather than try to turn it into hydrogen uh some processes need hydrogen uh okay rather than natural gas but yes yes you |
| 11:01 | can use natural gas so if i understand correctly you'll be proposing lng powered uh airliners in the future which makes perfect sense um i'm i'm not actually proposing that my my proposal is another part of the one of my many ideas which is to in fact use a an ultra capacitor to power many aircraft not all using electricity with ultra capacitors we believe we can get the energy density of of capacitors using uh tuberostratic graphene up to being close to that of lithium-ion batteries and that should be enough for |
| 11:54 | certainly light aircraft uh drones and and some of the some of the short haul heavier ones right but also i'm thinking our long-haul intercontinentals which uh that that hydrogen or something like that yeah or why not lng as a denser yep yes if they can use lng by all means got it thank you when you said um uh hydrogen uh reacts with hydroxide or hydroxide ions in the atmosphere did you mean oh radicals yes yeah okay they're not charged uh they're just in cisco they're radicals yeah yeah yeah okay and |
| 12:44 | that's that's that's really bad of course for um for getting rid of uh um but not getting rid of uh ozone and soot and and pfas and and methane yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah because france got any thoughts about that i only thought to hydrogen if it leaks anywhere and when it will be used everywhere in the future there will be much more in the atmosphere as you said but also in the stratosphere and in the stratosphere it produces water by oxidation photo synthesis and so on and this water will condense and produce uh |
| 13:43 | aerosol up there long-lived aerosols very long-lived ones yes and and they have also the uh property as to keep the uv away from the troposphere yes which is not good so reduce oh and so on because oh h radicals and other oxidants in the atmosphere depend on the on the existence of uv yes so very very interesting uh sev this leakage of hydrogen could cause so many problems yeah uh john yes yes this is this is topical uh robert and i had this discussion with the brendan halliburton that the the aerosols expert the csiro a couple of |
| 14:47 | years ago and he made the same points you know he he's fearful it's a it's a future greenhouse gas that hasn't been considered and uh i i actually raised the question of the chief scientist alan finkel at a talk i went to recently uh he said he owns the first australian first hydrogen car in australia and he's a great proponent of hydrogen but uh he did concede that it could it could be a problem if there's leakage but his answer was we'll let you know there's going to be very strict controls of it it's a very |
| 15:20 | expensive gas so we don't lose it and yeah it'll only be used for heavy transport not for vehicles for smaller vehicles for some time um you know so that was his answer but he did concede it it could be an issue if it's out of control we don't because we there's no leakage from natural gas too from the methane so that's that's something we can't afford more of as well but i think leakage is the main issue right yeah what's this here what's the hydrogen in the atmosphere i don't think |
| 15:54 | it's very long the lifetime of hydrogen in the atmosphere yeah i think it'll ultraviolet uh react to h2o with the oxygen in the atmosphere and i don't know if it's weeks or months but i'll be surprised if it's yours yes so uh sev can you answer that that the is when you say hundreds of greenhouse gas do you mean because it becomes water vapor or because actually but mainly because of its its effect on uh hydroxide radicals yeah i i would be concerned about the hydroxides yes near term but it's not like it lasts for |
| 16:39 | years and as far as its water vapor content well every rise in temperature has a i mean the biggest greenhouse gas by far is h2o and of course its presence in the atmosphere it would be impossible to identify a hydrogen signal that would appreciably change the h2o in the atmosphere since most of it's evaporatively determined by the ocean yep so perhaps it's more more the bigger concern is an oh sync then it's it sinks gets rid of oh radicals yeah tactically that's an issue but of course um the hydrogen is isn't that stable in the |
| 17:20 | atmosphere so its lifetime is short yeah i mean it's because of the oh radicals yeah the o-h radical is what turns them into all water but if it has a that's what i'm understanding brian and if um the so if it's a very short lifetime i mean if it's if it's kind of measured in hours or days um then a lot of it's going to be gone by the time it gets to the stratosphere anyway does anybody know how much how much hydrogen would end up reacting in the stratosphere to put water vapor up there |
| 17:56 | or is it just it might be a minuscule amount or don't we know what there was a theory that mars lost its water because uh the hydrogen um acquires escape velocity thermally in the top of the martian atmosphere and it's only slightly smaller than the earth so that's interesting but uh there seem to be some thresholds where you lose a lot more hydrogen in mar on mars than you do on the earth which is an interesting mechanism for losing your water vapor yeah also a part of oxygen a small part comes from the splitting of water by |
| 18:41 | a short wave radiation from sun in the in the uppermost atmosphere yeah that's amazing so some of the oxygen we've got comes from water getting split by the sun in the upper atmosphere um most of course comes from photosynthesis but i think the thing about the earth is we have this wonderful magnetic field that deflects the solar wind i think isn't that what protects us from loss of hydrogen in the upper atmosphere brian and anyone good question i thought this was ultraviolet determined and maybe not ionized |
| 19:19 | particles so much i'd expect a larger flux through uv photochemistry a larger flux of what a radiation energy uh a lot of this mechanism of dissociation as franz mentioned is determined with um ultraviolet vitamins okay short wave that's right it splits the it splits them up so you've always got this equilibrium going on everywhere but especially in the upper atmosphere where you've got a lot of water vapor it's hum molecules but you've always got a certain amount of you know hydrogen that's been knocked |
| 20:01 | off um well it's the same thing in the uh in the troposphere isn't it france you get o-h radicals the part of hydrogen is it has a high velocity the highest velocity of our molecules yeah because it's so light and therefore it leaves the uh earth atmosphere at the top into the space also yeah yeah and i think that uh spill checker may have done you a disservice in your comment i don't think you're talking about mouthwash going up into the atmosphere you got it yeah i wondered about that it's not listerine so it's lifetime that |
| 20:46 | was meant to be wasn't it yeah listerine's almost pure ethanol oh is it keep that in mind yeah uh okay well uh this uh um you were saying releasing hydrogen from methane uh sev with these um plasma torches that's a a plasma torch this what's this this you you have a high voltage sort of a high voltage chamber that's got this constant lightning strike going on in it all the time is that what it plays for torches think of that it's it's um it's like a a small electric charge going from an anode to in into something it's |
| 21:38 | it's a not a lightning discharge but it is a a small sparkles charge of electricity which heats up the the the gases around it up to several thousand degrees and the the higher h-i-i-r-o-c people have got this as do the uh monolithic minerals and various other groups they do it already you're saying yeah and it's so it's it's a butte way of getting no of using no emissions uh natural gas to produce very cheap blue-green hydrogen and nano-carbon products including graphene which can because it's a co-product it can reduce |
| 22:27 | the cost of hydrogen to very low amounts high cost because you can use to make these super capacitors and things yeah yeah but right so is it quite partly a question of how much this electric how much electrodes do you need then to make uh because i would think of it as a from a business point of view can anybody make any money from that do you need a huge amount of electricity to convert how much do you need basically to convert you you would try and use um uh renewable energy when it's at low cost then you'd turn on your your torches or |
| 23:05 | else you could store the uh electricity in the ultra capacitors and and use it at any time but yes it does depend on on low cost renewable energy but it is i believe i believe it could give us cost-effective hydrogen at much cheaper rates than water electrolysis right because because the co-product of water electrolysis is vast amounts of oxygen which we can't use whereas we can use all the nanocarbon graphenes black carbons carbon fibers whatever from uh splitting methane and the beauty thing about the methane is that it produces very |
| 23:51 | high purity uh graphene products they don't need any further refining and they've got no impurities right plasma torches that's a plasma torch you can't really see the the lights for the electrical flashes coming through and it's using the two two two nanowave uv in the room but i guess it's something it's look you can't really see it from there but just clears the flashes of electrical energy coming through the bullets so if you had a sort of uh kind of held that over the cooker with |
| 24:35 | uh with natural gas coming out the cooker that would turn something into hydrogen would it no idea but it'll kill any uh pathogens in the room as there's plasma going on inside those lights yeah yeah yeah these little bulbs yeah right i just i had one there so i'll just talk yeah yeah thank you thank you i certainly didn't expect someone to say well thank you very much german yeah so plasma i suppose i struggle to think of plasma because i'm just not so familiar with myself but yeah i suppose a neon |
| 25:06 | lamp it's got that's a neon plasma isn't it so we see it all around us really um or a tv is not exactly plasma but it's sort of electron gun isn't it it's going into a screen the old-fashioned sort of tvs um so it's it's not that alien a concept okay i think they have plasma tv screens or even now yeah yeah yes yeah so so it's not a hugely expensive sort of uh you know off-the-wall thing energy plasmas have been in use in spectroscopic applications for decades they're not of huge size they're |
| 25:48 | typically running two and a half kilowatts they do achieve very high temperatures which is the interesting application for them in spectroscopy and to my surprise one of my ex-colleagues in australia managed to solve the riddles of how to create an ear plasma so there is plenty of interesting information out there on plasmas at a small scale how they might you be applied in a point of use application is uh is interesting to consider okay when you say a point of use do you mean as a large-scale thing or what do you mean |
| 26:36 | well what is scale delivering hydrogen to vehicles at a gas station i would consider the gas station to be point of use yep okay so it's a it's an issue of scaling and avoiding the transport that is an interesting and interesting idea yeah yeah if it wasn't too expensive so that'd be my first that but so but i think frank uh sev what you're saying is without giving any actual specific figures you're saying that uh because we know that renewable power sometimes they have to well some people have to pay to dump |
| 27:12 | their power on the grid because there's just too much power um and so that that was looking for something that then can make money from it yeah another thing i think because hydrogen is very strong reductant that that can be used for making steel that i read somewhere that the first first reduction on yeah yeah triggy forrest is investing a lot in this uh of course he calls it green hydrogen would you would you call this green hydrogen or would it be brown hydrogen blue green blue because it comes from methane green because it's no emissions |
| 27:50 | or turquoise hydrogen right sorry brian you've had your hand up a while i forgot uh brian please well yeah so i think sev is correct that a small percentage of the uh methane would be turned back into hydrogen in this way but keep in mind that 99 of these gases are used as methane directly either you know put it right into a pipeline a natural gas pipeline and use it to light your stove or alternatively in the case of long-haul transport lng has proven to be quite a viable fuel that would work just fine in a turbine |
| 28:30 | thank you and has the um one atmosphere density at appropriate temperature to enable quite efficient transport there's no need to create a giant swollen guppy of an airplane in order to use this in uh long-haul transport so it's much more readily used and i would anticipate um you know that it could go into the existing economy with minimal changes as lng for long-haul just transports and for other applications so a relatively small change to what we're doing today could effectively develop green methane |
| 29:07 | and that green methane would provide much superior uh transport logistics and density than uh hydrogen would that makes a lot of sense brian uh when you say green methane uh what do you mean by that i mean methane that may have been generated from even hydrogen to begin with um you know depending on the process there are a number of approaches including hydrothermal liquefaction which can't produce uh methane and other hydrocarbons as a uh from biological feedstocks certainly have examples of biogenogenic methane |
| 29:51 | coming from the fermentation of feedstocks that's a biological approach and there are i would call it thermochemical approaches in a chemical engineering world using hydrothermal liquefaction which has been proven by the us department of energy pnml laboratory some years ago so lots of possibilities i guess people that don't i never really know if it's a political thing that people say it's got to be hydrogen because there's no carbon obviously there's going to be no carbon emission um whereas methane you're |
| 30:28 | always getting some carbon emissions so if we want to get to sort of squeaky clean net zero absolute zero then you can't have you can't even have methane or you know plants can fix plenty of carbon uh you know and just determine the number of thousands of square kilometers we want to utilize in the ocean and the seaweed will take it up very nicely thank you it's not yeah you know for for those who are chemically fluent uh you know green methane is is is not an issue in fact in the case of a marine permaculture biogenic source of |
| 31:06 | methane it's it would be carbon negative because of the sinking of approximately a quarter of the seaweed to the abyssal seaport during the process so there's a way to make carbon negative beyond green methane using such mechanisms if you end up with an excess of of nano carbon from spitting methane you can always turn it into biochar and use that as a means of sequestering co2 from the atmosphere so you'd actually turn natural gas into a carbon negative source not just carbon neutral but carbon negative |
| 31:50 | carbon negative because it takes it out the air to make the trees the tree and trees take it out of the air and put into tree roots and wood yeah yeah okay make it sound all so easy don't we yeah okay any anything else on that that's very interesting well there are there are many higher values as a graphite and as sev has aptly pointed out it's high purity uh graph graphene or graphite and thus many valuable applications including batteries yeah yeah great okay let's go to the next thing um well um should i talk about this who wants to |
| 32:39 | hear about titanium oxide aerosol yet another thing um i'm hoping john listen that you'll uh be interested in this as well uh titanium oxide aerosol so let me put up uh slide so um we've so we have so this is cooling we're talking about ocean atmospheric cooling we all know that with the um arctic is melting faster and faster and that's could be taking oh it seems to be taking greenland uh ice well what may follow shortly afterwards um once that once all the energy doesn't have to melt ice anymore it go |
| 33:35 | melt the arctic ice okay so we know that we need to refreeze the arctic and and um the weights glacier at the other end of the the other pole is um vulnerable as well so we've only just done this and started talking about it and sending hoping people are going to read it so here it is um it's a way of making bright white cooling clouds so titanium oxide aerosol was france tells me was actually used in the first world war um i don't know if it's you since then just to make a bright white fog that you so |
| 34:13 | you obscure your activities from the enemy um so it's not particularly high tech but we think we can make very small particles um and somewhat hygroscopic um anyway bright white clouds so so condensation cloud condensation nuclei but also um we think we can make the particles uh bigger bigger than a micron uh so that they fall out of the air very quickly and so if you have a dark patch on one for example ice where it's got biofilms growing or moss it gets covered by this sort of layer of white stuff you know |
| 34:57 | um and because because it's titanium it produces oh radicals uh wildfire that's meant to be co depletion um it produces again the same way with in the sun um which helps to keep the growth down uh it's that curbs growth of life forms um but of course depletes methane it wouldn't be the main way of depleting methane uh we still think iron salt aerosol and um what we're calling uh well acura errors or ara with which uses nitrate so we've got other ways of depleting methane more powerfully but this is |
| 35:37 | safe to put near the north pole and south pole because it doesn't encourage there's no no nutrients for anything to grow with moss and biofilms and said it will keep them back so we think that this is uh and you know wildfire um uh it um let's not come let's come back it's basically just targeted interventions uh and i mean we've heard this from stephen it's very compelling that if you can target where you put clouds according to what the weather people tell you to do that you can well at least avoid you can |
| 36:18 | um reverse some of this monsoons arriving at the wrong time so i'm keen to hear especially from stephen actually i'm glad to see you here stephen about that so let's just quickly go through these so we see benefits as as enough of this white cloud so one of the ideas uh which i put this to herbert huppert and he thought it should be okay is you have the catabolic winds you have the winds blowing down onto greek for example greenland also antarctica onto the big land mass and they go down the mountains they go out to sea out down |
| 36:55 | down the slopes out down to the coast and then out to sea so that's that's the constant wind flow could you have a if i go and have a look in a minute we hopefully will see them there and so we're suggesting where the glaciers are melting which tends to be on the margins actually this would be quite good so perhaps i'll bring this up actually it's a bit more interesting um [Music] there's one there uh that one there well certainly we've got um looking for if we look at this one here we you see can't see it there actually |
| 37:38 | um but uh there was a there's if i get a map up you'll basically see actually no this does do it you can get the temperature so this is uh what we've got air and surface wind so there's this is um green land there these are the so you can see a sort of catabolic it's not looking quite good there's a catabolic wind here coming down seems to be going in there so obviously they change all the time i think you're showing us your benefits and feedstock page you're not seeing it oh no thank you all right so let's do it |
| 38:12 | again uh thank you brian uh you see that can you see it you should see a map now yeah right now if i put on um temperature wind wind is it if we're on wind right now it will actually show you i think a temperature uh there you go temp so uh and you just click somewhere and it tells you the temperature so i click there that's four degrees centigrade some of these are so you can see uh it goes up i get temperature here nine degrees centigrade there but so anyway so you have glaciers melting at the edges it's not |
| 39:06 | kind of quite showing it with the temperature um glass is melting the edges and and the catabolic winds coming down so we're talking about putting and so herb told us that actually if you make a cloud with um particles and the wind is blowing you you end up just with a long line of cloud if it's if the wind blow is blowing straight it doesn't spread out very much um so assuming those sort of cross winds and turbulence so what we're imagining is this these glasses here which are melting put some devices further up the hill |
| 39:44 | that uh where it's not melting yet and produce a fog it blows down the hill over the melting glaciers and when it reaches the sea it's a little bit warmer this the air rises it goes up and it makes a cloud and then from that point so it doesn't show quite as nicely at the minute but okay a place like this canada place like that goes up makes a cloud or it might be from ships this sort of area and it's going right over the north pole blowing around in the north pole with lots of clouds during the summertime |
| 40:19 | uh since then i asked stephen we think we could make very small uh particles to actually clear the clouds in the wind in the winter time and stephen said you're probably not going to be successful wouldn't wouldn't bet too much on that so that's that's one of the uh one of the applications um so clouds to go over mountain mountain glasses we know that we don't want the himalayan thing the permafrost methane bomb again keep it cool a lot of this is just about putting clouds over places we don't want |
| 41:01 | them to heat up anymore ideally them to cool down where wildfires keep happening think try and plan beforehand and have clouds going over those in the months before that keep those areas cool and bit moist um open cast coal mines which get warm up in the sun deplete you know release more methane cover them with this white blanket um keep them cool give them a bit more moist but i just saw friends wrote in something else actually that if you keep it moist then you've got more the right sort of methanotrophs that will |
| 41:38 | um eat meat you know they live on methane rather than producing methane i put prolonging excuses and it's a possible source of income and if anyone's wondering how would you make how do you make this stuff well so we're considering different mixtures titanium tetrachloride is a liquid silicon tetrachloride mixing them so it wouldn't just be titanium it turned it might be quite expensive might be in short supply but there's plenty of obviously um silicon uh silica to make into silicon tetrachloride mix the two up um and |
| 42:16 | perhaps include some of these what titanium what these things tend to make when you put them all together is essentially clay mineral all these oxides mixed together is essentially that's what clay is okay so so that's it uh so we could have a targeted uh way of cooling the earth and uh it will not work only with with white clouds the haze it produces uh is also reflective and uh also would uh reduce the uh uh increase the ability yeah so that a haze going down the hill or just a haze even if it doesn't turn |
| 43:03 | into a cloud you've got this sort of foggy haze traveling over the surface won't the uh chlorine produce hydrochloric acid yes it will isn't that the same acid ring right we thought we we've talked about that france what would you say about this they uh hydrochloric acid is in the atmosphere at about 300 ppt and if after a while the the aerosol is so diluted that also the hydrochloric acid in the atmosphere is low low enough right i think it's mainly under the scenario where we're putting massive |
| 44:01 | amounts of titanium petrochloride or silicon tetrachloride into the atmosphere we're producing small particles but perhaps at scale the chlorine electric the uh hydrochloric acid might increase substantially yeah that's like i understand that that's the that's your concern brian that was also my concern and i said to friends yeah titanium treasure chroy so how it works that that there's always moisture as we were saying before there's always water vapor in the air and this immediately reacts with water |
| 44:34 | vapor in the air titanium tetrachloride becomes as you've just said brian titanium oxide and then you get hcl which again with water you get hydrochloric acid so yeah hydrochloric acid in in low concentrations or low ph is not harmless we have it in our stomachs that's how we digest our food um and we're not enough to make acid rain friends explain so we will need to explain that more fully how the conservation wouldn't be enough to damage forests and make acid rain um and certainly if when it goes in the ocean |
| 45:11 | nothing like enough to do anything um and especially uh in front of these when we use it on on the eyes of glaciers in the front of the glaciers you see in the melt water these white stuff which is uh abrasive from rock flower and this is mainly silicates and they would neutralize this hcl which possibly comes with the melt water zone okay so it'd be neutralized by rocks anyway to be that'd be one way it gets it gets uh neutralized is by silicate rock silicate rocks friends yeah um is steven there are you there stephen |
| 46:13 | um i sent you the the uh text do you have any comment on are we getting too excited here or what i don't know enough chemistry uh the question i'd ask is what does titanium cost per tonne and how many tonnes you're going to need yeah uh it's titanium is it it's a rather uh usual element after iron it was uh in the metals for ah uh john do you want to it's okay uh france let me let's let's i'll just finish yours i don't know john you're next john and then so so um it's a it's abundant in the earth's |
| 47:00 | crust titanium is uh uh or tetrachloride would normally be quite expensive because people want it quite pure we don't need it pure we don't mind if it's got still got some silicon tetrachloride or aluminium you know chloride so the bulk production it would be um it still needs energy and it's got to be chlorinated um but all the purification that's not usually done we don't need any of that done so so cheap enough we think yeah so john listen yes please yeah um i a few years ago well probably perhaps about 10 years ago that |
| 47:39 | i went to a lecture in oxford by somebody whose name was either david peterson or peter davidson who who was a paint specialist titanium oxide is the main ingredient of white paint and he was proposing to spray it from balloons and he'd done all the calculations of what kind of pressure you'd need and how strong the cable would be and you reckon you could get the thing to spray into the uh lower stratosphere and a large balloon um he did say that the uh the paint development for this would would um would take 30 |
| 48:33 | take 30 years to make that much better yeah no no to to develop the paint as paint goes ah you would have to you know you try and get the uh you try and get a biological coating or what i mean is um [Music] some kind of carbon coating or to tell them to give extra properties and you and you want the thing not to get charged or get too attracted to itself right so and this is typically the kind of thing that goes on paint development to develop sprays it's it's basically harmless so people who use titanium oxide paint |
| 49:33 | spray it a lot they don't die from anything yeah um and it's also in sun cream isn't it it's there it's what keeps the sun yeah uh and i couldn't see anything uh immediately wrong with it apart from the 30 years yeah i said we i said we need this now you know could we yeah no we don't i don't think we're thinking 30 years john i don't think yeah next year uh so so in fact instead of um uh the kind of thing that david keate is doing is an alternative to so2 in the water side and they're very good |
| 50:16 | um yeah so you might steal it from us and and put it out of planes in the lower stratosphere i think the advantage of so2 is that it it starts from the atomic level to build up uh particles so they really start from the very smallest thing whereas if you're if you're injecting something like paint you're already starting from something which is globules yeah yeah we we we want to boil the liquid you see so we boil titanium tetrachloride so it comes out as a vapor into moist air and so again it makes |
| 50:58 | very tiny particles yeah um so as far as the acidic acidification effect is concerned it will be similar to so2 producing pretty natural acid which is pretty negative yeah you could also use organic liquids from titanium but they are much more expensive i was i would say yeah um as far as expense was concerned um he reckoned about if you diverted about 10 percent of the world's paint production yeah you could get plenty enough to [Music] to cool the planet but might be interesting is calculations of of um error albedo change and how much is |
| 51:56 | needed um but i don't think we want to use you know start off with a liquid like paint because it's difficult to make it into smaller particles but grant you you've got your colleagues you said that they were they are experts in um sort of optics and uh calculating the effect of albedo i wish i could say that we're standing up to that impression we have made many calculations about albedo and we are starting from a very old source of information which i am trying valiantly to get either modified improved recognized or |
| 52:47 | commented on so uh just to jump the agenda here i sound like the salesman trust me it's going to work out we are within a few days of being able to distribute our content to you right i tell you what i think you're you're on on this list um uh okay uh and i've been neglecting service had his hand up for a bit uh so let's have uh sev please right um i'm sorry guys i don't want to rain on your parade but i can see several risks or disadvantages with this the first of which would be a a film of titan dioxide on |
| 53:41 | photovoltaic panels would play havoc with them it stopped them producing power secondly a film over on plant leaves would prevent photosynthesis would possibly clog the the pores on plants i'm i'm not at all sure of how uh peoples and animals lungs would cope with uh nanoparticles of titanium dioxide being inhaled and um it even could even stop uh or reduce uh oceanic photosynthesis by making the seas murkier um if you consider any of those possible risks and problems i think so friends you want to answer that yeah i want |
| 54:32 | to say we were not to eat near any urban uh and we we really prefer the the uh production of white surfaces on uh a glacier on on on the ice ice covered uh a place regions i guess it depends on how how long your smallest uh part of particles stays in the air and that's why we want to cover the eyes because in the melting regions you have lots of mosses on the eyes and also black patches and |
| 55:33 | these should be uh covered and just what you said the uh uh oh h radicals uh coming off from the sun radiated titanium dioxide will uh burn away the uh um or the biofilms on the ice from living yeah these mosses and so droplets and that and could well go hundreds or thousands of kilometers away from your preferred sites we we think we have uh how to control the the particle diameters we produce so if it makes very tiny if we want to |
| 56:37 | make white clouds friends with titanium oxide and they go over the arctic a couple of times and then they end up over canada on the boreal forest and they make all the all their fur trees is all bright white yeah does it do does it wash off in the rain or does it sit there and kill the tree i i think they would be washed away but i wouldn't do such kind of intervention you wouldn't do that no no yeah so do we i would keep it on the on the eyes and not elsewhere right so we don't want uh so how much clouds do we want to make |
| 57:18 | with this clouds in front of the uh with the after because of arctic winds yes the ice but they might get blown off the arctic and go somewhere else the winds go sometimes the winds come down from the arctic yeah if if we control the thickness and we make uh only a small part of it in in in this uh small diameter range limited i don't think uh there is the the uh dust coming from deserts and so on they contain also lots of titanium right because titanium is a is a very uh abundant element yeah yeah but but you're talking about nano titanium |
| 58:13 | and that may be different yeah but imagine the world has just in the uh arctic region uh uh also uh uh precipitation and this uh will be washed out yeah the caribou might breathe it and the the fish might uh uh inhale it i i just i just don't know what effect it has on on animal life you need to have tests done on that yeah well there's kind of soil in your caribou eat you know late grass but i'm sure they get a mouthful of dirt sometimes as well but that's not that's not nanoparticles the uh particles of |
| 59:10 | of rock and soil are typically quite large yeah clay is quite small you know um large large large lumps of biochar that or part of the biochar aren't a problem but getting it below 2.5 uh microns yes that goes into people's lungs as a diesel fumes that is can be really bad yeah it gets into the cells you are uh you are totally right yes right but uh the the uh amount uh which comes down per square meter and day uh is is the uh if it is much less than one milligram i don't think uh even naturally produce as such a nature |
| 1:00:10 | produce such small particles so less than a milligram every every uh sand storm produces also nanoparticles and it we're not doesn't kill too many people because the whole world yeah but it's a it's a very good question sev and and uh we should be sure we can answer it uh and thank you for that yeah i think brian's next please yes i just want to say that our colleague dr leslie field uh has worked on this for ice for quite a while and has come to the conclusion that uh hollow sand is of appropriate green size is perhaps far |
| 1:01:03 | more effective in reflecting light on ice than alternatives probably including titanium dioxide so um i think it's all about appropriate sizes and appropriate functionality and i would guess that millimeter-sized hollow silica glass microspheres basically hollow sand um may be far more innocuous in the case of ice albedo i think there is a case for looking at this quite seriously and uh discussing it with leslie field and mitra das thank you john yeah yeah well one question i i would if leslie was if i had a chance to ask her |
| 1:01:54 | sometimes the question comes about by a fouling of her beads that if they might start off white but if they've got but you know biofilms get everywhere and they they might sort of cover the these beads and end up turning them brown or even black you know um if they've got enough nutrition do you know anything about that brian yeah if you look at um sand on the beach today it's not particularly fouled you know sand is generally a nice light color and that's probably a good example and of course that light color is |
| 1:02:25 | accentuated by the uh length scale of the hollow glass microspheres which do a fine job reflecting visible light just as raindrops do a good job as well yeah things that are in floating in water so they've got air they've got water um and they might have other bits and pieces organic carbon you know well keep in mind the density of these beads is approximately a quarter gram per square centimeter per cubic centimeter or less and so they're floating on water and thus they are effectively exposed to air and i do a |
| 1:03:01 | fine job of reflecting right yeah yeah france i would say if if you uh cover the ocean surface with with these speeds uh it will become rather dark in the er for example and that's uh it's not so good for the ecosystem there this is mostly about applying it on ice and of course wind and waves will move the holo glass microspheres around but the intent is that you can protect multi-year ice potentially especially when it's covered by sit and this of course will darken the ice quite a bit and the apollo sand will brighten it |
| 1:03:51 | so uh yeah yeah so this hollow sand is to be distributed how's she so has an idea of covering large ice fields with these speeds in the um nepalese himalayan glaciers and i believe there's fundraising for it this year with the climate benefit concert to do a limited scale trial validating what we know already in in minnesota and in alaska will work quite effectively to brighten the ice and preserve the ice right okay and sand is already in the environment there so it's it's not like we're introducing anything no no |
| 1:04:30 | no it's just uh i mean all these things we want them to work we want something to work uh and to work as cheaply as possible so that this is what we're throwing into the mix um and i hope i hope hope leslie is successful as well thank you brian uh did you have something else john n oh no that was that's okay well apart from the the uh the fact that the the paint is it's okay you just got you still got your hand up john i wasn't sure if you had another and then it was just okay as far as the the question on safety yes |
| 1:05:09 | it's safe in paint i think it's probably safe with the power size yeah smaller size as well yes right okay thank you everyone for that um and um hi hi robert uh i see you with your woolly hat on and uh and mana joe hi clive i'll just mention that the link that i put in the uh chat uh based on john nissin's comment about discussion of titanium dioxide 10 years ago by peter davidson links to a very extensive discussion at that time in the chemical engineer great thank you so that's um guardian article the guardian article |
| 1:05:53 | great thanks right look at that later thank you uh okay uh so um let's have uh yeah brian so we're going to talk about let's just let's just review this for a minute john uh affecting oxidative power okay so you've done a bit a little bit let's let's hear from brian and we'll get an update from grant as well so we want to finish we've got 25 minutes so let's get make sure we don't miss anything this time right brian please if there's anything about the rebuttals and stuff yeah |
| 1:06:25 | right well first of all just briefly mention as i stated previously that we're one step away from a hectare that can demonstrate economic sustainability for coastal communities i would say from australasia through the indo-pacific to the mediterranean eventually back to the states even so it's encouraging i think that's working very well um you know of course there have been a number like our objectives climate foundation are primarily food security for a billion people who depend on the oceans for their sustenance and livelihoods |
| 1:07:00 | secondly to regenerate not only enough food for humanity but enough food for nature regenerating life in the ocean is a key objective because if we get to zero carbon but it's on a dead planet we'll really have succeeded we have to bring the other paint million species along with us on this spaceship earth the third is to actually measure the carbon export of these regenerative interventions and literally you know we can see the seaweed falling off some quarter of the seaweed falls off the platforms during growth and sinks a |
| 1:07:28 | thousand meters a day to the abyssal sea floor it's not rocket science you just put out a catcher's mitt and you can catch the seaweed as it falls measure that daily flux and it turns out a ton of dry seaweed is uh is the same as a ton of carbon dioxide if you include the moisture levels of around 30 so this is all very simple you know it doesn't take complex accounting to measure the flux of seaweed literally uh falling to the seafloor and feeding the benthic communities that have been starving for the last four decades due |
| 1:07:58 | to the reduced marine snow that's occurred in the subtropics over the past half a century all that said there have been a number of organizations that have been proposing just growing and sinking seaweed in the various parts of the ocean and this has caused a strong fear reaction among the reactionary portions of the marine ecology establishment who are have a religious opposition to doing anything in the oceans because some actually some of them actually you know persist in in believing in the myth of a pristine ocean and sadly uh |
| 1:08:31 | for better or worse we've raised the um epipelagic ocean temperature by 1.1 degrees celsius on average and 2 degrees celsius in my hometown of woodsman massachusetts over the past century and three to four degrees celsius in the coastal areas off of the eastern shores of tasmania so there are a number of regions that have seen double and triple and quadruple the uh ocean warming that we see on average so these places have been greatly affected and and the macrocystis kelp forest east of tasmania has been |
| 1:09:03 | decimated some 95 percent from its uh levels of just a few decades ago so the problems are the water is too warm the nutrient levels are too low by restoring natural upwelling we can actually get back to pre-industrial levels and we can document at least 3 000 square kilometers of calpers that have been lost on the shores of western australia tasmania and california alone not to mention the many places that we haven't been looking we've also lost help for us to this effect all that said there is i would say |
| 1:09:36 | a religious and flat perhaps political opposition by the reactionary portion of this marine ecology establishment to doing anything in the ocean that you know to their to their minds has the potential of letting the fossil industry off scot-free um now i think uh you know we preface all of our discussions with the need for decarbonization to level of 80 or greater and that then some of the drawdown technologies can begin to do the rest not to mention soak up our 1 500 gigatons of carbon dioxide that have been emitted in the last two centuries |
| 1:10:12 | which we've got a lot of footprints to erase there and that's where these technologies really really come in they these technologies have the potential to uh of course draw down some of the gigatons that we've already emitted so the arguments that that explains the why uh these articles are appearing and it's it's a fear reaction associated with the uh the the you know extrapolated statements relating to a pure carbon play where their number of companies are trying to just grow seaweed and sink it you know as |
| 1:10:46 | it's kind of a quick fix points not sure it'll do that there's a problem of nutrient robbering downstream we address that by upwelling nutrients from the mesopelagic zone that's a hundred to a thousand meters deep and that can be done using a variety of techniques upwelling in some cases where we have to restore natural upwelling but in other cases you can actually lower the seaweed it acts like a nutrient sponge soaking up those nutrients at night comes up to the surface during the day and at the surface it soaks up sunlight |
| 1:11:18 | and carbon dioxide and does a fine job of fixing carbon each day at a scale of we believe will be close to 8 000 tons per square kilometer per year of direct removal and another potentially 20 000 tons per square kilometer per year in avoided emissions associated with reduced nitrate fertilizer production and reduced nitrous oxide uh production in soils that have a lower application of nitrate fertilizer um all that said the rebuttals uh i mean the the arguments have been very very focused on the eutrophic regions near |
| 1:11:56 | shore these are regions that are high that have have high levels of nitrate and phosphate and what they're comparing is a kelp forest compared to a plankton forest that would be there if the forest weren't there so they're looking at a very narrow region that's next to the shore and they're saying well these natural kelp forests are fixing carbon but so would the plankton forest and maybe the plankton forest that has replaced the kelp forest is going to do just fine and it's like well which one's better it's hard to say |
| 1:12:26 | but that's a a false a false compromise because the reality is by going offshore with marine permaculture with uh you know with with artificial substrates and restoring natural upwelling we're in fact replacing uh we're replacing mostly empty ocean i mean literally this is a true blue carbon sink it's mostly empty ocean not there's 100 million square kilometers of mostly empty ocean very low productivity and so reality is when we use submarine solar and wave energy to restore this natural upwelling of |
| 1:13:02 | nutrients and get nature back on track we're replacing something that has orders of magnitude less productivity with something that's fixing on the order of two or three thousand grams of carbon per square meter per year so it ends up being really black and white and so these you know it's a bit of ankle biting you know there's uh inevitably politics uh masquerading as science and that's pretty much what we're doing and in fact professor carlos duarte has roundly trounced the the argument the papers that have |
| 1:13:33 | come out in australia about how oh gee kelp is no help oh this guy is falling you know he's just roundly roundly disassembled uh the the arguments there and i think uh you know we're hoping that uh eventually these uh political bubbles will will sort themselves as the obvious uh occurs and our need to regenerate those 3 000 square kilometers of lost kelp forest as a starter regionally offshore in areas that are less contentious because after all the shorelines are contentious but we've got full 300 kilometers of be zed to work in |
| 1:14:08 | and the substrates are affordable we can scale them we can provide food security and in a climate disrupted world that's first and foremost what we need to do i mean we're dealing with climate and other disruptions interrupting global food chains and the fact that this can be distributed hectare by hectare to coastal communities and enable marine permaculture platforms to provide food security energy security ultimately um regeneration of ecosystems and fisheries and finally carbon drawdown and we can |
| 1:14:38 | measure that quite reliably with emerging protocols that's uh a hopeful vision that was articulated well in the film 2040. um fantastic brian i wish i could speak like you i'm i'm still i'm working on it yeah who what's the name of the guy that you said fully roundly trance the annoying people the ecologist what was his name uh professor carlos duarte from king abdul uh university uh in saudi arabia oh cows carlos duarte um that's that should give me enough okay wonderful that's that's great thank you |
| 1:15:17 | very much brian um john uh mcdonald's bill bryant i mean that's the balanced view uh i just wonder where where do you think that there could be an argument for actively intervening to cool the southern east australian current you mentioned the four three or four degrees off the east coast of tasmania a number of methodologies could be brought into it it could be marine permaculture red cloud brightening i say but what whatever to cool the cool car i mean there's active methods being used to cool the great barrier reef and then |
| 1:15:50 | daniel harris is making some progress with marine club brightly but what about actively cooling the east australian current from from that pool of water that's doing so much damage in the kelp to the kilt down the east coast there do you think there's an argument for that i think locally and regionally with a thousand marine permacultures uh you could begin to have an effect on the mixed player um i would look to technologies like marine cloud brightening to try to address this on a regional scale and that could be done in temperate |
| 1:16:21 | zones as well as subtropical zones so there is a likelihood that over the ocean there would be that would provide a good albedo feedback and it turns out i think you only need to reflect you know it's on the order of a watt per square meter uh in order to uh have a substantial effect on temperature so um a combination i think we need uh many of these intervening wedges and uh it's a combination of being able to uh increase the the reflection of visible light back to space and to be able to effectively manage that temperature and |
| 1:16:58 | by restoring natural upwelling we can actually get our ecosystems back on track get back to pre-industrial temperatures uh it does require some distribution and that's where marine permaculture is able to provide a pipeline distribution system that effectively mixes that deeper water well so that it can do some good in the epipelagic zone in the top hundred meters of the sea yeah but what i'm suggesting also is that there's a number of massive wing farms planned in bass strait which are upstream of the the east |
| 1:17:30 | australian current where it flows down past the east coast of tasmania so tapping those uh with surplus surplus power could provide marine cloud brightening which could cool the east australian current further south uh yes it's not quite as iconic it's a great risk but i think it's still a strong argument for attractively innovating here i would say a combination of marine solar wind and wave energy can uh help to restore natural upwelling and can be done sustainably there's a question of scale and location and all the rest but |
| 1:18:04 | in terms of locales and regions i believe there is a way that uh you know these interventions can be put forward responsibly and in partnership with uh the portions of the marine ecology establishment that are truly interested in conservation preservation and ultimately restoration and regeneration and that's something we're going to need to move towards it's it's not enough to do pure bad things in the ocean uh you know the barn doors are open the animals have left the barn to get more animals in the barn you're |
| 1:18:34 | going to have to regenerate some of them so we're working to do that for fisheries around the world great thanks brian uh uh robert hey brian uh just uh i wanted to pick up on the debate you mentioned with the marine biology uh community members and this is this is something that we've we've discussed before just in terms of the what you called a a religious commitment to [Music] emission reduction as the sole uh strategy for uh perhaps together with some carbon dioxide removal and uh as a as a strategy to address climate |
| 1:19:19 | change and um i i agree uh that that that is a core problem in terms of the moral hazard logic and uh so that people are saying that um that's uh seaweed sequestration will give sucker to the the fossil fuel industry and and this is a uh just really important um question in terms of the political strategy political science um psychological uh analysis of uh of the climate debate and uh i really feel it's been uh uh has hasn't been assessed uh sufficiently like for example i had a real ding-dong conversation the |
| 1:20:10 | other day with some climate activists in which i was just comparing the polarization that we have today to uh to the social polarization of the 1930s between the the communist and fascist movements and and when when you look back to uh to how you know the communists thought that they were uh on the side of good and the and the fascists were on the side of evil that's and and vice versa it's you get this how this extreme sort of polarization can can emerge in in society where it's uh it's quite irrational |
| 1:20:50 | and uh and so uh working through that sort of irrational polarization as a as a social problem uh is is something that i think really needs a lot more attention you know why is it that you know sensible scientific people they they say uh okay you're fraternizing with the enemy and or something to that effect and and that's that's sufficient to say well you're a traitor to the cause and and we won't listen to what you say uh now that's that seems to be the sort of psychology that's operating |
| 1:21:24 | that's a good point robert uh thank you for that uh mention and you know i think uh there's a key challenge and opportunity and that is we can work with uh those companies particularly who've made scope 3 decarbonization commitments and scope 3 is all about not only erasing your own carbon footprints but erasing the carbon footprints of your customers who are using your products and the emissions associated with those uses which for the fossil fuel industry is quite profound the scope 3 levels are an order of magnitude |
| 1:21:55 | over scope 2. so by working with scope 3 companies and organizations we can partner on their commitment to achieve net zero with scope-3 emissions and then furthermore that sets the stage for carbon removal technologies uh and approaches such as marine permaculture so we need to do move this step by step and ultimately we'll need to bring the marine ecology uh establishment along with us and you know thankfully the reactionary portion of the marine ecology community is a vocal minority uh but you know they're |
| 1:22:28 | publishing papers and they're trying to achieve political objectives through uh their their paper publishing which um sadly sets us back in some ways uh you know it takes longer to raise funds when this kind of fear uncertainty and doubt is being sell and we've seen the fossil fuel industry this is a page directly from the fossil fuel industry where you know they they will so fear uncertainty and doubt in controversy for years if not decades before something actually gets done about it and so we're just seeing a |
| 1:23:01 | similar set of tactics being used by these reactionary forces within the marine ecology community but you know i think ultimately uh let's let's hope that reason will prevail although as you mentioned uh it requires good communication and there are notable communication gaps uh it seems that uh you know in this in this day it's uh of course the fear reactions are five times faster than well-reasoned love reactions that will get us to a healthy planet and a healthy climate i think that fear reaction is uh quite |
| 1:23:31 | more widespread than than you're perhaps implying with saying it's a small group because it seems to me that the like for example the donor base of greenpeace uh largely shares that uh fear reaction and uh it's uh you're uh in talking about scope 3 that seems to raise the uh the question of carbon credits and saying that a a coal expo company exporting coal from australia to china could uh could fund a seaweed sequestration to uh to offset their scope 3 uh emissions and and that sort of strategy seems to me |
| 1:24:11 | directly workable but anathema to the people who who see shutting down the coal industry as the uh primary uh strategic agenda uh for uh for climate policy well that's a good question i i will provide one example and that is in january uh shell plc made a scope three decarbonization commitment of 45 by 2035 and 100 by 2050. |
| 1:24:40 | uh those commitments are significant and they are certainly putting a lot of investment now into becoming an energy company as opposed to a fossil fuel company and so i think that transition is one that we should try to accelerate i've always had an issue with i think probably more than more than a decade ago the commonwealth of australia went to stanford university to show how beautiful their carbon accounting was and they'd completely left off the books the 800 pound gorilla coal fuel exports to china so |
| 1:25:13 | it's just this 800 pound gorilla lurking in the room several hundred people and the upper half but that's they are they they base that directly on the agreed accounting systems under the ipcc so you can't blame australia for uh for saying that at the agreed like i know australia uh fights tooth and nail to prevent scope 3 uh being accepted but it just it it illustrates the gross hypocrisy that surrounds the whole climate debate the idea that europe has done so well on cutting its emissions is purely about |
| 1:25:50 | factories to china and and then you know people want to blame china because all these companies have have shifted their emissions there under the pressure of these manipulated um accounting rules but i just mentioned one other thing brian i i put a couple of links in in the chat uh one is the the article that just came out last week uh showing that uh the use of land forests as uh as a permanent carbon store is uh is a fool's errand uh because they burn and uh just so this this uh and whereas uh seaweed sinking |
| 1:26:25 | to the ocean floor does not burn so the the whole uh permanence and uh verifiability and additionality uh those are the key criteria that we really need to be working with and so much of australia's carbon credit system has failed on on those criteria whereas uh what you're doing is completely successful oh thank you robert yeah i have to agree with you and just as a european example it's notable that the uh you know the the the low-carbon electric train system in europe which is uh commendable uh it has |
| 1:27:02 | such high taxes that it costs more than the airliner trip and the airliner trip you know is subsidized there's actually no tax on jet fuel in sentient countries right so tax-free fossil fuel is pouring out of these aircraft in order to uh you know in order to increase the tourism business and yet you know for every hour of airline flight just add one sumo wrestler to your lap of carbon dioxide that sumo wrestler represents the hundred kilos of carbon dioxide that has been burned by that aircraft per seat during the hour of flight so every |
| 1:27:35 | hour of flight you get to add one single wrestler of carbon dioxide onto your lap every passenger on that airplane and that's how much emissions we're doing so we can do all all we want to in terms of having a nice carbon-free lifestyle get on an airplane and it's game over how many sumo wrestlers can you hold on your lap how much do they weigh 100 kilos each yeah yeah yes so it's it's quite sober here we just need to to reconcile uh our overall systems you know tax what you want less of and subsidize what you want more of |
| 1:28:11 | and we need to turn this around where electric transport whether it's trains or electric short haul planes uh turns things around and hopefully green carbon negative liquid natural gas will be our fuel choice for long-haul intercontinental transport in the future but it illustrates that politics operates at the level of mythology rather than science yes i think so uh my previous administrations of the united states yeah people make decisions based on emotions don't they not on not on sort of logic and data |
| 1:28:46 | and politicians know that and i mean you can never we can never be too rich or too thin in hollywood and um you know never too rich or too lean and i think what we need to do is create a value system uh that living lean means being responsible about carbon emissions greta tunberg has certainly provided an example of this and you know for better or worse we've eliminated our air travel over the past several years and hope to keep that trend i mean basically 80 to 90 percent of air travel we need to individually live by example and then |
| 1:29:19 | can encourage our friends and colleagues to be serious about erasing our own carbon footprints and then enabling our friends colleagues communities industries and ultimately governments do the same okay thank you i think we've got two minutes left for the last two uh items here um john well it's actually grant how can you give us an update uh i think john you haven't done much so far what's your update on your you think you're about to said you're about to announce a new version of the program |
| 1:29:59 | grant this is i'm asking you grant to speak okay uh i'll be brief uh within the next week i expect to have the pre-print drafts of two papers in your hands uh the first one relating to ehack's application to albedo increase is in the final styling correcting some rather weird typographical stuff and the second paper which has to do with carbon sequestration in the oligotrophic oceans is also ready to roll uh here is my disclaimer the he hacks paper sorry the sequestration paper relating to oligotrophic oceans |
| 1:30:53 | demonstrates how impossible it is and this is a minority view of a couple of authors co-authors we are recognizing that if you want to apply e-hux or e-hux and sequestration you need to start at the fringes of the fertile oceans related to upwelling and what brian is doing so there's some more material there'll be some good stuff for you guys to chew on thank you okay thank you so what you're saying is it's impossible to do much sequestration in the oligotrophic the bigger bissell ocean the scale the cost |
| 1:31:37 | one of the views i have is that what will eventually be applied by my successes is going to be based at what i see on this time based on desperation rather than logical science and applying proven techniques i'm working to make sure we avoid the frustration of having people spend unnecessarily on low probability solutions right so what you're saying is tell me if i've got this wrong that the the main sort of hope is uh the increasing the albedo using these uh hux because they make cochlear the fours which are yes right in the |
| 1:32:21 | ocean we have not done enough work ourselves of looking at the impacts in fertile and near fertile ocean spaces and that's where the future work needs to be done and i do not expect the group that i've been working with to tackle it okay all right so you discount my boy and flakes concept no they they just got it they were not considered inside out paper by the other authors said i'm not discarding anything that has just not been picked up and reviewed inside of our prior work okay i understood and i do want a point |
| 1:33:06 | of clarification and that's simply that in the oligotrophic ocean there is a replete supply of nutrients just a couple hundred meters below the surface uh it takes roughly two meters of head height to bring that to the surface alternatively a deep cycling works well for macro algae if not microalgae and as a result we believe we're intending to prove that even at hector scale working in polygon trophic and mesotrophic environments that we can regenerate replete productivity uh and i agree with um the comments that it does begin |
| 1:33:42 | on the margin and that's why we're beginning in the philippines and working out to the tropical pacific ocean uh but we're stay tuned because we're actually proving out the economic sustainability at one hectare at a time and i think that's going to be exciting for building let's say a private equity investment industry that ultimately can help to finance projects for coastal communities worldwide fantastic right brian we look forward to that we've also been learning more from brian than others inside our group thank |
| 1:34:12 | you great okay uh last thing then uh uh john where have you got with uh so i appreciate you looking into this john i know you're you know like everyone you're worried about uh the arctic and uh you're just desperate that something gets done yep uh yeah um just one thing uh just a couple of things i've discovered recently uh there's somebody at harvard uh that's where david keith works so so this one of their projects is to look into this uh um oxidizing effect or deoxify oxidative uh power of the of the atmosphere or |
| 1:35:01 | capacity so someone's just looking into that uh the other the other thing um uh is is well two other things uh one is that a two percent increase in uv i'm sorry one percent increase in uv produces two percent increase in skin cancer right so this medical world will want will favor something which reduces uh uv uh and then the third thing is uh that the arctic uh methane that is coming out in such quantities due to temperature but the imperative is to reduce the temperature above everything and that's what should be driving us |
| 1:35:59 | reduce the temperature and what was that oh but that should be our overriding yeah yes temperature i agree because only one degree of change in permafrost produces a huge amount of methane the equivalent of kika yeah right who's that do you know who the name of the person is in harbor that's looking into oxidative capacity because we might like to i've i've put an email you have done already yes i think i saw that yeah and i copied you uh yes oh that that's the person then okay so we that we might be able to get |
| 1:36:40 | in touch with them do they know you is this are you known doug mcmartin knows me so i've sent it to him he's working on the idea of injecting lawsuits and he's looked at right so doug martin said everything conceivable thing that could go wrong good well good yeah so he we could contact him because we we find ourselves this whole thing about the oxidative power of the atmosphere is is massively com you know we're seeing more and more complexity uh more and more um pathways chemical pathways so you know we're not sure that everyone |
| 1:37:24 | else is seeing the same things that well it's for of course i'm speaking for france france sees more and more things happening and so we might be able to collaborate effectively you know we might be able to point one or two things out because we're telling you know other atmospheric chemists are saying wow that's interesting yeah let's have a look at that you see so we we we might be able to uh accelerate that process and if we can work with them so you're saying i should just mention to doug mcmahon first before |
| 1:37:52 | context i've already said that certainly now about that so i thought i thought the group might be interested i saw it thank you right so um all right we'll we'll have a go okay i've just added another link on this stratospheric ozone response to sulfate geo engineering from geometh so okay uh right so that's uh who's that from the agu right okay let's have a look at we'll look at that in status quo as a response is that is that about the uh oxidative capacity of the of the atmosphere or something else just |
| 1:38:29 | more broadly about the ozone issue of the ozone issue in the sorry yeah it's fine yeah yeah so so franz's main as say has which he said many times uh concern is the we we have uh uv a b and c the uva is the shortwave stuff it mostly it's almost all uh removed by the ozone layer then you have uv uvb and uvc um and most uvb i think is is absorbed by the atmosphere so we mostly just get uvc on our skins when um in the sun and uh they it it's this uv in the troposphere that makes all these oh radicals um which deplete methane and |
| 1:39:12 | clean the air generally um in all kinds of ways and also makes these cl radicals if we have iron salt aerosol and other things like that in the atmosphere so to to to find we've got uh different you know uh levels of the different kinds of uv in the atmosphere is is a is a concern uh it might turn out to be fine um we don't want lots of uva coming down to ground level you know as you just said skin cancer so that that's the thing it's the the effect in the troposphere of a changed uh sort of spectrum of uv |
| 1:39:50 | uh that that's franz i think is that right friends that you're mostly worried about that's that's the main concern that the effect on atmospheric chemistry your muted friends um we can't hear you friends you're muted i only said yes yeah yeah yeah great thank you yeah yes so uh there we go and it's all been said in email so i don't need to repeat it here we've had our hour and a half without an hour and 40 minutes folks so i don't want to keep you any longer thank you very much once again for all your |
| 1:40:21 | comments uh any comments on the uh i mean people just keep telling up just about the emails that i send out does it did is it worth recording it and putting it on youtube i mean i think people have said in the past you some people do watch it uh i always find it like oh dear i don't want to watch that again i've been through all that but when i go into it it's actually quite good it's really good hearing from people and hearing the conversations maybe i'll just leave it at that i i think it's a useful uh historical record |
| 1:40:51 | for people to look through and see our arguments so provided it doesn't take much work by you keep it going yeah very little to put it on youtube it's thinking about what to say about it afterwards but i think if no one's going to read the email just look at the time make sure you're there next time but maybe i'll just like last time i just put the agenda up i just copied and pasted the agenda maybe that's enough just to do that yes okay then all right thank you for that everybody and see you in a couple yep |
| 1:41:19 | manager is that something yes i just want to say that as an educator you know i'm going to have to go back and review so putting them in a place where it's easily accessible is very very valuable because i'm you know really trying to keep up and and uh learning a lot as i go but um uh you know i kind of consider myself somewhat of a a link to the public at large and yeah i would also like to mention that i spent the last seven days at the ulster county fair educating people on climate science and possible solutions we did not get into a |
| 1:42:08 | lot on geo engineering because i don't i didn't want it to become controversial i want them to begin to understand how the world works so um you know i am uh let's say tilling the soil uh you know and and in preparation for uh when when this uh starts to really catch on fantastic and you've seen the spreadsheet we have that's i i put them all in there all the links if you want to watch those manager yeah yeah yes i have and i've just been uh kind of going from one tunnel of focus to another but now |
| 1:42:50 | i i will have time and i've also given uh clearwater notice that i want to work on this on on climate science education for the general public uh full-time either as a contractor for them or i can find other funding uh and i've given them a year's notice to uh figure out what we're gonna do moving forward okay well very much appreciate that uh manager and you're absolutely welcome here every time and to ask questions as well as and make comments as you've been doing i'm taking notes and you know learning |
| 1:43:31 | that way but it will be very helpful to be able to go back and yeah and hear different sections they're all there that you know you can watch them anytime thank you all right folks see you in a couple of weeks thank you cheers thanks everyone sure |