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| 00:31 | good evening good morning hi nice to see you morning yes of course yeah hi david i guess it's morning for you as well uh or maybe just about afternoon 13 13 o'clock yeah yeah yeah oh my goodness did you say i just sent an email to a meeting action and replying to daphne you wouldn't have had time to read it yet no i did see her note she's looking you mean the one where she's looking for people to speak yeah and the one before that meeting yeah before that who should be in charge there was a peter carter who you know climate |
| 01:18 | scientist has been posting videos on youtube the last few days i watched his latest one uh saying that uh well in order to in order not to overshoot two degrees uh radiative forcing must be kept to below three watts per meter squared but it's already past that yeah so yeah um so peter i think asked a good question uh who peter farkowski who should be in charge of sorting it out uh you know of a massive intervention um climate scientists environment you know ngos environmentalists or governments who will say do more science please |
| 02:10 | so i i just think there should be a the ipcc was appointed not to uh direct policy at all but just to say here's the science there's no one saying you know this is what should be done other than governments who haven't got a clue they're saying here is the science it was about three and a half years ago on average because uh it takes that long to get grants and do work and write papers they're only allowed to use information that's in the referee published journal right yeah you know i gave it i gave a talk at |
| 02:44 | the ascilla conference uh in april and someone just wrote me and said would you put it on youtube and i began it with a graph of the temperature and i challenged the audience to show me where the paris agreement was you know and it's impossible it's impossible to find it and i reckon this kind of problem is not solvable by the way governments are structured not that i'm suggesting we look away from democracy please but i'm just saying governments are not set up properly to handle transnational events |
| 03:22 | um yeah there's just i don't wanna i wanna get into it but uh it's gotta be a mix governments have very important other roles to play but trying to have them be exclusive is non-functional interestingly you can look at the temperature curve and you can see pinot tubo yes i shouldn't laugh that's sort of frightening but yeah um it'll be interesting to see if the tonga volcano produces any similar results yeah it will be interesting we've been having purple sunsets for four or five months |
| 04:00 | now since that volcano relating to stratospheric dust and the southern hemisphere yeah it's been pretty spectacular all right and where are you are you all over australia are you still there australia mate i wasn't sure if you were back in woods hole uh uh brian no uh still here in the southern hemisphere only down the fort i try i try to recognize the background your background anyway i'm going just going to kind of uh monitor the emails because last time a whole lot of people couldn't couldn't um |
| 04:40 | join the call but anyway i can't see anything here on my phone it hasn't gone beep uh hi hi uh uh dermot colleagues how you doing all good just talking doom and gloom hi john hi hi clive hi bro you're still alive then yes no picking up i really think it you should uh well for dermis would be the best one to give advice on kovid you were you were wiped out so many times because i've had it so many times you mean well and you were wiped out for three weeks pretty much yeah yeah but uh so there's always a first for everything |
| 05:26 | first yeah yeah and good evening grant oh good yeah afternoon grant great good evening to all i will have to leave early today to take care of my ongoing health issues but look forward to the conversation and catching up with the recording later okay so it's not just john then you too yeah no good should we get an agenda going um i don't know where franz is but anyway we'll just uh go go ahead uh friends friends is there wow hi friends hi good to see you right let's uh find out what to talk about uh so we began talking about um |
| 06:22 | we began talking about this uh radiative forcing i've just introduced radiative forcings is already committing us to two degrees c i'd be interested if other people here say look like you've misread it you've got that wrong because i feel like pinching myself is that really right well i propose we talk about about that um i'm ready to force it that's me uh i've got a reply from peter wadden we'll come to that um seth wanted me to mention um a uh ocean conference uh by climb by the ccrc |
| 07:21 | in july is it the july the 15th you can join it online so great quite a lot of us should be able to attend i've already signed up excellent i i wasn't sure if you yeah i'd much rather even in london just down the road or yeah i'd rather do that okay um france could we talk about the acidity of the atmosphere uh uh okay the effect we think it might be having yes okay or the lack of acidity in the atmosphere and there's more methane uh what about your idea john that um i think that'd be good to to |
| 08:16 | see what stephen salter says about uh iso making clouds while we wait for nozzles to make clouds from sea water the the right size droplet did you say isolated i isa iron salt terrorism yeah yeah okay uh i i really don't know enough chemistry but if you can tell me the weights that you need to have i'll see what whether i can fit men but i've got a feeling you might want to have bigger ships right yeah i think that's right but the question is how much bigger and the hydrofoils won't be the right |
| 08:55 | thing if it's if the weights go up too much yeah but that doesn't matter i mean they've never catamarans or displacement piles even okay yeah that's just looking the payloads are going to be much much greater obviously because yeah stephen could sublimation work on your vessels uh i well at the moment you don't need to have any replenishment of any materials because you're getting everything from the sea uh now i've got an arrangement i can take have some spare canisters and i can take a few |
| 09:31 | tons and i've offered to do this for russell sites and the way we would do it for his stuff would be to have two spray vessels with a a paravein cable between them and so they're a kilometer apart so that you're making a kilometer wide week and uh he indicated that we might be able to carry a reasonable amount of payload for uh for his material if we could replenish it at sea and the navy can do that it's not easy but it can be done with with 20 20 nanometer particles you wouldn't need that much weight like |
| 10:12 | they can make an awful number of well i i want to have a number for the weight not just the value of not much yeah can we come back to this folks anything else for anyone else what we're just thinking about i don't think ron's here but there's the uh possible breakthrough with the sulfate aerosol that he raised the paper that he raised a few days ago i missed that is that ron diamond yes there was a it was the carbideal sulfate aerosol as a there's a geo-engineering geoengineering method did anyone see that |
| 10:53 | yeah yes it's not apparently it's rather nasty stuff sounds like it yes um all right okay certainly poisonous in in in higher quantities but even if it's a a very very small quantity is acceptable you've still got a terrible argument with the um the the etc people right had the word carbonyl can you climb c-i-r-b-o-n-y-l carbonyl sulfide yes carbonart yes then they're proposing to to emit from from land-based carbonyl it's not carbonyl surface it's uh the cos which oxidizes to sulfate and becomes uh |
| 11:49 | an aerosol no it's not carbonyl sulfate then sulfur so this is cos yeah when you first read it you think you're talking about trigonometry and it throws you cosines yeah so um uh all right so we'll cut we'll get to that uh and then this is also if anyone's got a question or a commenter i mean david uh it's always great to see you because i know you're working on isa over there on the other side of the of the united states um and uh so i guess you might be listening for any tidbits that might |
| 12:37 | come out but but is there any anything in particular while everyone else is here that you might like to discuss uh well i could talk a little bit about what we're what we're planning to do that'd be fantastic actually but uh we're looking at uh much larger particle size distributions in the uh tens of nanometers um especially to begin because of the complexity of uh of spraying building product you know spraying particles of that size tens of nanometers or tens of of microns i mean tens of nanometers oh no it's pronounced |
| 13:14 | you said two nanometers i didn't mean to say two i didn't mean to say two i think we're we're thinking about a hundred i think a hundred nanometers yeah so i'm going to start around you know distribution 150 nanometers because i can produce that pretty inexpensively don't need any exotic nozzles um and i'm talking to a ship talking to a couple of shipping companies about putting on the back of a container ship they've got plenty of room for carrying tons of material if you want to do it |
| 13:48 | um when you said two animators i was awfully surprised the the the problem is that they want to go where they want to go not where where you ask them to go other people the ships you mean the ships yeah oh yeah yeah yeah though most of them i mean some of them they're great uh great circles go out by alaska but most of them spend their time uh plus or minus about 30 degrees in the equator [Music] yeah and that's gonna stay in international waters away from mental stills yeah so this trans-pacific rocks are |
| 14:22 | quite good right distribution right okay um anything else for anyone else that's not not too bad a list now on the face of it some of them some of these will to be dispatched quite quickly uh has anyone got any comments on the ordering so all right any let's kick off then any um comments about so that i mentioned at the beginning uh peter carter uh i don't know if people come across that on the uh you know these email groups is saying uh that we're already committed to that given that relative forcing is already |
| 15:13 | um ah we have uh herbert great to see her but uh good good morning herbert afternoon i mean evening good evening that's quite all right it's a pleasure to be here i'm sorry i've not been able to make it for a number of meetings in the past okay well it's always it's great to see you so very much okay so just i'm asking if there's any comments at all about this this reason i mean peter carter sounds you know upset that uh the radius of radiative forcing from uh co2 equivalent you know uh |
| 15:53 | greenhouse gases is now beyond three and he cites loads and loads i lost count how many uh papers or statements from the ipcc and others going back to 2007 that it shouldn't go beyond ideally i think 2.5 and and certainly not beyond three watts per meter radiative forcing if we want to stay within two degrees centigrade so he's really saying this idea of a carbon budget is is not a good idea it's a busted flash or something and that wasn't that wasn't his words am i misreading it am i getting too |
| 16:30 | excited or do mongering too much is there something i've missed or is this the situation we're in maybe outside yeah it should probably be three watts per square meter yeah okay so and um i think i might have posted the link actually no i posted a link of an early one he's done it kind of since i could very quickly uh i i was thinking about playing the video but um we could just very quickly do it maybe like this very quickly and i'm very happy if you if i hear cries of protest no no chloe we don't want to see don't |
| 17:06 | want to watch a video because we can do that anytime so this is it actually here so he's he's doing saying all this stuff here um we get to all loads of things like this greenhouse gas index the most recent one was published in may of this year 2022. it's a brilliant excellent simple source that i always check through every year it tells us what we need to know most atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration atmospheric co2 equivalent concentration which accounts for the other greenhouse gases and the radiative heat forcing which is |
| 17:48 | the heat that has been added to the climate system by atmospheric greenhouse gas emissions so this is the on the left is the original image it shows these three things the red is the what they call the greenhouse gas index which is the radiative force i think we know this stuff so i don't want to get a point here this is a reliably accurate simple and vivid picture of current traffic this one here atmosphere increased greenhouse gas emissions and i'm showing the three main greenhouse gases here carbon dioxide methane and nitrous |
| 18:31 | the perturbation to direct climate forcing also termed radiative forcing that has the largest magnitude and the smallest scientific uncertainty seven eight so there is the same image larger and uh you can see that co2 here actually this is where we've got in order to limit two degrees celsius temperature increase and we're already on 508 at 2 degrees c so i've got that written down there 2 degrees c yes 2. |
| 19:05 | 5 watts per square meter radiated forces 2007 350 ppm i don't really propose to sit make you sit through this whole video so uh let's just leave it there don't you share the link for the video so we can watch it later yeah yeah yeah of course yeah yep yeah that's that uh maybe we'll just leave that leave that at that point with a video for the climate emergency institute the topic is climate change mitigation it's uh deal with the difference and i can't stop it provides more conclusive evidence that limiting to 1.5 degrees c |
| 19:52 | is impossible and only immediate global emissions where is it coming from possibly prevent a warming of 2 degrees c by 2 is someone else playing mitigation uses atmospheric co2 equivalent and radiative forcing uh the luna hopefully you don't hear it now although i i am still hearing it greenhouse gas index and using the it's coming from clark you can just meet him now i'm trying to kill it policymaking ah it comes with a proposition that the atmosphere is amazing that you've managed to use your audio while |
| 20:28 | looking please there we go sorry my apologies well i shouldn't have broadcast the sound but never mind okay uh right well i must say that's a highly informative update on our radiator forcing i think it's very helpful and uh look forward to seeing that in detail it's one of the few presentations that actually has some really interesting information that's not broadly distributed right okay thanks brian yeah so there we go i thought i should bring it to your attention the number that i was given from um the |
| 21:07 | hadley center is 1.7 watts per square meter at the moment uh is that um exceeding equivalent seriously that's the heating power the health the problem was 1.7 watts per square meter so the average coming in is 340 so that the problem is half percent of what uh is coming in at the moment so we have to get rid of half a percent it doesn't stop very much uh how do we reconcile the 1. |
| 21:41 | 7 with the three i'm not sure that number is from uh the recently retired head of the hadley center right this you have the total radiative forcing and then there's the uh um net forcing as well isn't there given that the earth has already heated up a bit and so it's already because it's hotter it's reflecting more out well as i read it um it's 1. |
| 22:14 | 7 watts more than we use we used to have but personally so that's the total increase in radiative forcing since since when we liked it yeah so if we if we could reduce it by 1.7 watts everything would be wonderful now i i it's obviously it's going to get harder than that if we don't do anything at all oh yeah yeah yeah but um that that was you know it would be generally useful if we could get rid of 1. |
| 22:42 | 7 watts right uh yes um and so this we seem to be unclear and simply not we don't know or we can't agree on what this figure actually is peter carter's saying it's gone beyond three so maybe i got that wrong oh i think i know you know what a what is i know but what but what's right or not we know what a what per square meter is steven but we don't know what they've met but we don't nobody here seems to know i thought peter carter was saying it's beyond three watts per square meter and you're |
| 23:15 | saying the hadley center saying it's only 1.7 that's a well it's a huge maybe he's looking into the future of it uh and my 1.7 watts is is out of date already but uh that's at least we can attribute it to the hadley center who carry a lot of weight politically well clive the uh i i think the uh previous ipc report ipcc reports will provide clarity on the number of watts per square meter today and we could validate the noaa figures that peter signed it to yeah okay this is from julia slinger who |
| 23:49 | was the previous um chief scientist at the hadley center who's just retired and is pretty hostile to marine corps brightening i don't know about other other things all right okay uh i think we'll we will we'll move on because we can't speak sensibly about that um okay so this is uh something to put in the diary uh 15th of july ocean conference you've already sent us the link to that i said live good great okay yeah the eventbrite link okay um friends and i've been discussing uh well iron solid aerosol needs to |
| 24:34 | operate and it's naturally occurring it depletes methane already with by making uh oh radicals and seal radicals and it needs to uh operates best is i think between ph1 and ph2 in the atmosphere and uh but uh the amount of so2 sulfur dioxide and is it nox coming from ship engines and like well that that and other pollution is on the decline because uh because of the rules and because of loss of pollution so we're just wondering if uh part of the reason i heard rob jackson say some months ago uh uh stanford uh professor |
| 25:23 | uh um released a report last september i think it was somewhere around around then um calling for much increased research on on methane removal um in the atmosphere um and and methane mitigation as well um um what am i trying to say what was my thinking he he uh damn i forgot my thread does isa depend on acidity the lifetime depends on acidity um that's right well sorry i forgot my train of thought but yeah that that's it that's basically it really uh oh that's right he's he said that's right he said they they are embarrassed |
| 26:16 | he's embarrassed to say that scientists don't know where methane is coming from uh i mean i think they haven't got much to go on they have that they whether it's c13 or c12 is it biogenic or is it um coming up out the ground um and uh so this is what we want we're it's we're just raising it that we this may be and i think we're going to say more about it when we've had a little bit more look of a look at it see what anybody else has to say about that uh lack of acidity uh in the atmosphere |
| 26:52 | over the ocean could be causing reduced methane removal that that's been reduced brian you have your hand up yes the stable isotope changes in the past decade have indicated that the new source of methane is likely to be natural sources and by natural i simply mean that it could be coming out of surface permafrost or submarine permafrost but i remember an isotope study uh pointing to a different source of the methane uh in the past 10 years so is that saying that the overall ratio has changed or we're getting more of both and that |
| 27:40 | the ratio is changing i think it's uh you know you can look at the total methane in the atmosphere you can also look at the isotopic ratio of methane and the isotopic ratio they'll tell you about force because there's a signature which is the isotopic ratio from fossil fuel sources and from other sources yeah but this this is what i'm saying here brian that if it was i don't know 60 40 or something and then it neither doubles or whatever but it's still 60 40 then people are going to say well we know that we know |
| 28:11 | the anthropogenic sources have increased because of more coal mines and more fossil fuels um and the there's a bit of extra biogenic because of cattle but where's all the rest of the you know if we if the 60 percent itself has doubled where's all this extra uh non uh where's this extra biological methane coming from leaking pipes but isn't leaking pipes uh not by not originally biological this is out the ground that will be old yes if it's coming from a rise paddy field it's been made out of modern |
| 28:46 | carbon dioxide then that'll be new methane and the only thing will be the permafrost and the stuff from oil and gas fields is this because the carbon decays yeah that's the 12 yeah but but if if it's if it's if it's from the paddy fields or presumably from the cows it'll be new methane yeah uh also be signatures uh with respect to the stable isotopes as well as the radioactive isotopes and so it's possible to identify the fingerprint if you will of each source and um i believe i remember seeing some |
| 29:25 | studies that are looking at the stable isotope ratios to identify the sources of methane in the atmosphere right what i'm trying to say is uh would could there be a way if the lifetime of methane is has increased in recent years from whatever it was 9 years to 12 years or something i don't know would it be possible to tell simply by looking at these isotope ratios perhaps over time since in fact the c14 i seem to recall is coming from the atmosphere itself so there may be yeah so it's it's actually 12 13 and 14. |
| 30:07 | yeah yeah c14 is radioactive and it's coming from the atmosphere and so if you know your lifetime increases in the atmosphere you're gonna see a significant c14 change okay that's good to know so so the methane molecule sits there one minute it's a 12 or a 13 and then because it it's it gets hit by some radiation it then becomes c14 yes i believe that's in the upper atmosphere right we have a different uh opinion on on that because we we believe that the the lowering of the acidity of the atmosphere |
| 30:57 | may also increase the the existence of the lifetime of a methane because anox and the atmosphere becomes uh uh changes to um nitric acid nitric acid yeah a nitric acid and this is done also by this changes the ph on on particles on sea salt particles and the ph becomes rather acidic to ph one and lower when sulfuric acid is produced in the atmosphere and |
| 32:04 | nitric acid these processes and nitric acid also attempts to deplete and sunshine and produce 08 radicals and and no2 and if this happens on a sea salt or edge radicals would produce change chloride into occurring atoms and korean atoms are well known to deplete me oxidants of a methane better than a wage molecules so we believe that uh the reduced uh analytics from ships from coal mines from from coal from power stations cold water stations |
| 33:10 | and ship engines the the reduction of server content of the fuel would produce and the end effect necessarily reduced oxidant in the atmosphere yeah and and uh extend the lifetime of uh missing yeah that's the thinking behind it not only making clouds by cooling by by a class everyone now knows that surveyed particles act as uh act as a |
| 34:13 | cloud colonization nuclear and produce clouds yeah yeah so we could have a chemical component and a uh physical component yeah yeah so it's a kind of a double whammy yeah uh not not just so jim hansen talks about reduced clouds from pollution and many others we're going to see an increase an accelerated warming from this loss of pollution but but you're also saying france that that uh it's not just um indeed increased warming from uh from these reduced amount of clouds but also the loss of acidity in the |
| 34:57 | atmosphere as has less oxidative power and so many things yes time is probably increasing and the atmosphere yeah so this this could be helpful for those of us who are looking to you know promote and move uh iron salt aerosol up the agenda a bit uh could be helpful okay um all right let's move on then uh so john suggested this to us the other day could uh so let's figure out let's go back to that joey that you talking about that um i mean so my sort of what my question uh if i just throw it in for now is uh |
| 35:43 | if you had double the amount of ships if you just had cheap old ships they're big enough to hold plenty of material in their hold so they can you know produce the iron solder actual ions for aerosol and some reasonably not medium tech equipment to produce the aerosol would you would they have to be running around so much if you could have double twice as many ships would they have to go so fast would they have really good high-speed catamarans could you could could that work but brian you have your hand up |
| 36:14 | i just wanted to say i just found an article from noah indicating that the rise in methane is thought to be from a microbial source based on the analysis i'll um i'll put a link shortly in the chat but noah seems to indicate that the new rise in methane is associated with microbial sources that could be associated with agriculture or i wonder if they could preclude the permafrost i'm not sure and that's an interesting source okay thank you very much i look forward to having a look at that in the chat thank you brian |
| 36:46 | yeah yeah so so i'm proud i had to cut you off earlier when you were talking about uh mcb uh using iron sold aerosol to make 100 nano nanometer droplets stephen um could it work from big ships yes but you do actually want to have a wide area with a low distribution rather than with a highly a very um high concentration in a point source yeah so uh this is why we want to have lots of little sources rather than a few big ones okay i think we would be happy to have yeah we also want to be able to migrate with the seasons just doing it between plus |
| 37:36 | minus 30 is not very sensible because you get a lot more energy uh coming in at the high latitudes just for a short period so we really want to be up near the arctic ice and then near the antarctic ice which is why it's nice to be able to go quite quickly and get i think we can not if we're not spraying with without with the present design we can get from north south in about three weeks so uh we can track all the the seasonal changes and nip off somewhere if we're needed it's being able to do a a targeted area |
| 38:12 | like a an el nino hot spot that's attractive but that doesn't mean to say that if you've got something that is effective over a long period and is going to be diffused uh then you can do it in a a big uh a large dose in a small area but the our stuff will be washed out every time it rains the question is whether your stuff is going to be washed up brown if you're a gas then i think it won't be i think if it's an aerosol it will be yeah um arctic shipping could could release it and even if it only stays in the air for |
| 38:53 | six days it would still be very useful yes yes it would uh if certainly if the ship is moving fairly fast that would spread it um but uh remember we snow or rain will wash it away uh and um [Music] the the average life will be half the meantime between showers just to confirm what it is i think we're talking about 100 nanometers seawater aerosols or something else no well well i don't know what other people want but i want to make a 0. |
| 39:29 | 8 micron liquid salt drop which would dry out to a sphere of dried salt of 200 nanometers or a cube of 136 nanometers um and it'll probably spend most of its time as a rather salty drop with a few crystals of of salt in in a 25 solution of a very saline liquid and that that's a very good thing to start a nucleation it it's it's a the right sweet spot and it's in what's called the green field gap which is a a measure of the scavenging efficiency of nuclear fallout and both the liquid drop the dried salt and |
| 40:19 | the intermediate mix are all nicely in the green field gap if you start with 0.8 microns it's also a greenfield gap being a particular size is what you're saying isn't it yeah that's right it's it's if you if you put that into uh prove capturing sorry crew patcher and you'll you'll see the greenfield gap hardly any of the climate physicists i've spoken to know about it but it is in in the the good climate physics books how many of any of the hardly any of the who the climate physicists |
| 40:54 | have have mentioned the green field gap and the the other other thing that you need to think about is what's the width of the size distribution uh for nucleation and i believe we won't have the narrowest possible size distribution because the big the big aerosols will nucleate before the little ones and when they do that they'll soak up a lot of the water vapor and so the little ones will have a lower relative humidity so they don't get a chance to nucleate at all now what i want is to get a high |
| 41:29 | uh you know one nucleus one cloud drop ratio and i think we'll do that best if we got a narrow spread of sizes right yeah it's a bit like soldiers doing drill in exactly the same moments at the same time yeah they don't bump into each other yeah yeah and uh if you have a turbulent airflow and you've got different sizes you'll have much bigger chance of them colliding right we've learned this from you stephen it's been very valuable um i mean we would like to do that too but we would like that to happen too but |
| 42:06 | that apparently the nozzles don't seem to be available um because no one's wanted them uh we we we can certainly but we've modeled them in a thing called console climate physics sorry yeah cloud console is a multi-physics that's right multiphysics and uh there's also uh uh work on the the the this velocity of drops that you need to make not get nice well separated drops rather than dribbles and the the the green field gap and the misery of making uh nozzles and filtering the sea water all converge to |
| 42:52 | that that area there are some people who want to make much smaller ones and i'm not sure that's right but uh we will have to respect them they know more about cloud physics than i do right so what does ccrc say what are they doing that aren't they well they're meant to be studying it yeah but they're not designing a nozzle then they're not yeah they're meant to be using commercial nozzles adapted right but i haven't heard from them uh i i've explained to them why why i think we need a narrow spread and i've |
| 43:23 | all the commercial muzzles that i've seen have about a ten to one drop size ratio uh and i don't know whether they can reach people understand that or understand it properly yeah so i i'm um until i have another a better reason i want to stick to that size and it's it's doesn't need a very enormous extra relative humidity to nucleate and it's pleased to be nice for the engineering but cambrie said oh let's just do it off the shelf if it is off the shelf great all the ones i've seen |
| 44:02 | have a much wider ratio right so this is our point um stephen this is john's point john introduced us to this idea to us the other day saying that uh given that that the nobody has made these nozzles yet that hasn't that you know that an aerosol of the required size and size distribution hasn't been able to be made uh so far we reckon we can do it with that with our insult aerosol um well uh we must obviously exchange ideas and i've i've got dimension tolerance drawings of what i would like to make |
| 44:38 | uh to make the size which console says would be the right one um but uh i haven't had got enough money to uh set up the the the tooling to do that yeah but we don't make it we don't make droplets this is the thing we make tiny tiny particles uh which become as you were saying they they hydrolyze um and then they become i i don't i don't have to start with a liquid it's just that there's lots of liquid around that's got the right chemical nature in the sea water and they're going to be short of that |
| 45:14 | okay so if you've got another one i suspect your devices stephen wouldn't carry the uh the payloads of iron that we need uh i mean that you've got the resource sitting right there the water of course yeah this is why i want to know what your payload requirement is and and all i know is it's a lot heavier than mine uh but i need to know a number of what it is then i will think about the best sort of ship that you need to carry that about and you it could be that you have some very big ships with lots of material on |
| 45:46 | board which has a good way of transferring medium quantities to smaller ships um yeah it would be a bit like oil catchers and cleansers yes but working the other direction so to just give me some numbers about how much you want and i'll think about how we could do it we have options but i think our one of our favorites is uh anhydrous iron three chloride which is sort of solid salt it basically looks like salt yeah and you you heat it up and it vaporizes sublimates so how many tons a second do you want a lot less than a ton a second |
| 46:31 | my ships are doing 30 kilograms of water a second yeah much much less than that much less than that one kilogram a second should be very effective yeah yes except that you've got to get it there uh i i i can use 30 kilograms a second because it's already there and i've all got to lift it up yeah yeah i understand uh steven we have to have a big hold full of this stuff yeah um so it gets uh hauled around the place could be some issues restocking of course on the falling vessels i mean it sounds more like conventional ships |
| 47:11 | uh doing the work or dedicated ships uh and there's you know 60 000 of them out there of course there's there's variables here i mean there's possibly for isa to do some uh cloud formation as well but but you could alternate you could you could alternate between marine cloud brightening and i'd solve aerosol dispersion from the same ships you could depending on the weather conditions and so forth so that it needs to be tested with there's a there's an excellent site the south of tasmania where this could be tested to |
| 47:44 | testing both marine flower brightening and outside air assault this mastica island off the south coast of tasmania straight into the southern ocean with the very clean air from whistles that were across the town i've had to look at it where you say it's around it looks very good to me i think a lot of the instrumentation would be very similar and um i think we should be able to pick up the effects by superimposing satellite images uh the the you wouldn't be able to see the effects from just one ship by eye |
| 48:19 | you need to do a bit of clever computing to to detect it um but um a a large number of small sources is going to be better if they are have a short life and they get washed out if you've got a gas that isn't going to be washed out then i don't think you're worried about that so that you're you you know it's not a guess i think matt johnson uh he's done some research on this as well as a press of chemistry said three days uh lifetime yeah well i think i think if it's being washed out by rain it'll vary a lot it |
| 48:57 | might be somewhere it's every day that it rains and sunlight might go three weeks so that could be an average you really want to know the the statistics of the longest and the shortest yeah well up to now uh friends and i have been talking about well let's go to a place where it's very dry hot hot lots of sun very dry so it stays up for a long time and get lots of photo catalysis um but uh if it's going to be mcb then you have to run around and go to it wherever you are needed don't you to |
| 49:24 | make sure that you don't have the right monster at the wrong time that's right i'm sure it's very good to be able to have a short life and go to where you want it and then change your mind and go somewhere else yeah and as soon as you start doing it you reduce the position in the merit order you know if you could say let's look at all the world's oceans and we'll find the ones we've got the right amount of sun coming in and the cleanest air and the shallowest boundary layer depths and all that stuff |
| 49:55 | and yeah there are some really great places and there's some medium ones and there's some pretty awkward ones yeah and but as soon as you start spring in one place then it's pushing it down the marriage order and somewhere else is better so you should always be knowing whether where else to give you the job you want to speak this monsoon or where you've got this hot blob or where you're going to get the biggest total cooling effect and that'll that'll vary day by day right yeah so it seems to me at |
| 50:24 | these big shipping companies that are very worried about you know their their sort of social licence and so forth um and have money to spend as well uh i think you're talking to some of them david aren't you yeah i am um they don't care about social license oh it's they're shipping companies right is it the rules they're interested because maybe it's the new rules coming in that they feel they've got to comply with the two things are they're afraid of rule making which is one of the good |
| 50:54 | functions of government and their customers are actually starting to ask for net zero shipping or cleaner shipping so they're all looking for a band-aid they can put on the problem uh but as far as concern from the climate i've heard lots of words about concern for the climate as soon as you say things like uh reducing your carbon footprint they're like oh we can go faster then so um don't imagine there's any kind of idealism in the shipping industry no no fair enough no no no there's 90 000 there's 90 000 commercial |
| 51:31 | ships right now i didn't mean to imply that um i don't think we need that many okay you don't think we need that many i don't think we need ninety thousand so they they lose they lose a surprising quantity all the time it used to be one and a half percent of all ships were lost uh lost every year it's about half of that now i think but uh they're always bumping to each other or going aground or yeah well yeah right so i didn't mean to imply that i think that they're idealistic in any way david um |
| 52:04 | uh it's just that if they i was hoping you were oh you were hoping i was i was hoping you were being idealistic no no no i don't don't expect that from anybody much at all um but um if uh if but if they you know say that if they're coming forward and saying hey look we've got a problem help us you know we'll we've got a little bit of money to spend if you can solve the problem for us uh so we can just keep operating then um there might be some you know mutual benefit uh which is what we're doing yeah at the |
| 52:39 | end of the day we're paying them that's what it comes down to it may look slightly different some cash may fall in both directions but at the end of the day we're paying for the space on the ship really um yeah yeah so which means even if we were to generate a carbon removal credit and sell it to them at a discount that's still getting the money right okay so so that means you're getting some money from somewhere from methane credits or something that's the plan that people seem enthusiastic for it so |
| 53:13 | um i think people are finally actually getting worried about the climate yeah but there's a lot of we spent a lot of time on the social aspect actually um just because we realized that was the biggest barrier to us to being able to do it yeah so which is its own long conversation yeah fair enough so what do you think about this idea of uh you know if some kind of collaboration or sort of morphing iron soul to aerosol you know isa into also um cooling doing the right kind of calling in the right place at the right |
| 53:48 | time uh you're asking me as a human being i'm extremely excited okay uh yeah trying to get some isa into the atmosphere i want to keep the story as simple as possible um but if i can do that then we can look at the economics and politics of bringing cloud writing which i'm i'm very excited by great okay so so okay but you also see it's just the idea that's such a great idea if i've got something on the ship already right that i could put another thing right next to it um i'm just shocked i hadn't thought about |
| 54:30 | that you're not even putting something next to it you're you're just well you're you're it's the very thing that you're doing is it but it has to be that it's just that some ships you can't if you've got the same you know ships going backwards and forwards with their containers you know they're doing useful stuff um but there need to be other ships using the same technologies you're leveraging in fact you've developed that tolerance you can now put it on on other |
| 54:54 | ships and they run around all over the place right or the conditions are not right for one so you do the other conditions are not right for one so you do it together not right for what the the big the big ship's going back and forth no this ship might i might not want it to release iron assault aerosol because it's going to rain in a week or something okay okay and i might i might squirt some uh sea water into the air to try and cool it'll reflect some sunlight yeah but i think what what what we're saying here is that the |
| 55:24 | technology for marine cloud brightening that's that's what i'm trying to say here the technology for actually putting these getting seawater and turning it into droplets which is what stephen has been you know persevering with for for years um the money hasn't been there to develop the nozzles to make these droplets the right size and so the technology simply isn't there um well it is it just hasn't been paid it hasn't been planned i got all the drawings okay i don't go to all the computer simulations right |
| 56:01 | and we've got lots and lots of climate models that are saying that it's going to work quite well yeah and but you can't persuade uh ccrc to actually make these things we'll find the money i i think they they say they want to make them yeah and i have sent them uh calculations about uh driving the vessels and i've sent them drawings of the filtration tests the way in which we can see whether we can filter it well enough and i can i can show them drawings of what i think is the right nozzle design |
| 56:36 | it's quite complicated because you want to be able to flush it clean you've got to have it protected from birds in it you've got to make sure it doesn't get iced up and unclogged and you need to backflash it so it's a quite a complicated bit of a kit and i think to to get the thing going needs about two million quid uh to to do all the work and prove that it's working nicely and i haven't got that much i've got enough to do a bit of it but i'd rather have no money than not enough money |
| 57:14 | okay i have worked before on projects that were running out of money and it's a really miserable business because you're worried about people's salaries mortgages and families and so on so i i don't want to start doing it and fail and then have a heart suck lollipop lying in the gutter that nobody else will pick up yeah okay but i i know exactly how to do it and the computers say both the climate modeling computers and the drop generation computers say that it's going to work fine and uh i know that they know that we |
| 57:46 | could do it and i just want to be sure we can do it properly and not half do it yeah and crush yeah i've been trying to get the ccrc to use commercial nozzles but at much higher um biphasic pressures to get the right droplet size and i've also suggested a way to modify the distribution of droplet sizes you've got to reduce the number of bad bad size droplets now they're meant to be working on that but they haven't been saying what they've been doing yeah um i think they want to have a very broad front approach |
| 58:35 | and i think they will uh try and back five or six different options and then if one of them gets hard work they will just drop it and push on with the others i think they want to be at supreme headquarters uh making big political decisions uh and not being in the front line trenches getting muddy boots um you mean for technology or what do you mean for approaching the idea don't forget they'll see this video i've i've told that i've told them tell them okay yeah and plus we have a herbert who |
| 59:14 | might speak up in a moment yeah but um but they but they're measuring didn't hugh say hugh hunt said you know we started measuring these droplets and it's not as easy as you think you know you've got to set up all this kit and uh you know you're not sure if you've measured it properly so they are getting their hands a bit dirty the the uh um the the the nice equipment for measuring drop sizes costs about forty five thousand pounds but haven't they got that already it's certainly |
| 59:44 | you know i i couldn't get one um yeah oh okay involving melbourne instruments is it could be yeah most universities have one of these measuring one or three sheffield university had three of them but but they couldn't couldn't find one for for the project they were using so i i'd be sure that cambridge would only it's probably in some other department and they they may be jealous of their equipment edinburgh university is not at all keen on what i've been trying to do they've got 40 people |
| 1:00:27 | uh trying to get rid of carbon and they see me as a taking bed out of their minds as a threat and i've been refused permission to apply for a grant you have to nowadays you have to get a committee in a university to say yes this is a good enough submission thing to submit to the grant giving body and they've turned me down for that and uh i've also now been told to i've got to move out of my machine shop yeah i've had my own machine shop since 1962 and i've got a very good set of machine |
| 1:01:00 | tools and so on and i've got to find a new place to put it uh and i had just a short while i won't notice to do it so i i've there also some quite good climate physics people here who i've asked to help on problems and they say no they won't do it they don't they want to yeah get involved with it so just stepping back this um if we can if this seems to be so much resistance to just making seawater into droplets and it seems to be so difficult to do um if we have another group of people who |
| 1:01:39 | are going to be able to make 100 nanometer particles um not you know made from iron chloride which is very hygroscopic and it's going to make lots of clouds and um this is this is john mcdonald's point that uh where you have one set of technology gets developed and then that's used to both remove methane and also put clouds in the right place at the right time to cool call the oceans my theotomizes designed to do that okay they have the sublimating the iron chloride at the top and they also have the |
| 1:02:16 | different size droplets being produced slower down the iron soles aerosols after they've done their work in getting rid of methane should end up as cloud nucleating particles yeah right so we we have another technology we have c atomizers as well see yeah but if that happens too quickly they won't get their job done removing bfa i'm like i don't quite understand when you say when they're done removing methane they'll make clouds well they they they remove methane when they're very very small |
| 1:02:52 | because they that these are so fine as they accumulate um water or ice particles around them they become big enough to nucleate raindrops i see what you're saying yeah and then they said raindrops did you mean cloud drops or did you mean rain i hope cloud drops first and then you said right yeah yeah do you have something to say about that friends do you want to do you follow the conversation yes yes i'm following and uh there's not a second aspect that small droplets say 100 nanometer or so they have a greater vapor pressure than |
| 1:03:42 | a bigger droplets yeah so they keep dry even in a more moist environment and that's also an aspect which would help to lengthen their life right but but a droplet that becomes a cloud droplet that's white and it's reflecting sunshine it's it's making chlorine atoms isn't it i'm i'm sure that it also makes chlorine atoms because in my tests it worked because you can always see that it makes chlorine atoms when iron etheric iron becomes reduced to ferrous iron and that's the uh uh that's |
| 1:04:44 | uh that that's evidence the result what what happens when when this chemistry go yeah so you know it's making chlorine atoms because that because it's become ferrous ion yes yes yes yeah that's the proof that's the proof of it yeah so maybe that was new to some people and it it works also in in what uh state yeah so not only in the dry state yeah because a chlorine atom it's gets ejected from the droplet yeah it has a very low energy [Music] even if you have a particle and a small thin coat around the droplet |
| 1:05:30 | this rejection process would be the same yeah yeah so the only reason you you want you don't want your droplet too big is because you you've lost your surface area volume ratio becomes inefficient yeah yeah so it's only way yeah we are going to work on a mechanism which makes this uh process uh much much more powerful more economic and yeah so we're working on some more some more powerful chemistry as well yeah leave it at that for the time being that's very it's very encouraging and also there's the dimethyl sulfide |
| 1:06:20 | benefit of fire salt aerosol when it's rained out and it forms healthy algal phytoplankton blooms that that's a cloud former as well so there's a potentially a double benefit from isa here yes yeah physical cooling methane depletion and co2 depletion also yeah and then more physical cooling because you get more clouds from the dms yes yeah yeah yeah yeah so this is uh this is what we have but i think you're doing very interesting and useful work with potentially very useful work there david uh because uh you |
| 1:07:01 | we we don't know we don't think so much about social license and we probably should be thinking about that we think more about as you can tell chemistry and things um but well the way i put it there's no one who can say yes but there's many many people who can say no yeah that's a good point we're worrying about the nose and to be clear marine permaculture also works to build social acceptance over a dozen-year development period so we've been working for a dozen years on social acceptance |
| 1:07:35 | in the background with marine permaculture yeah yeah and you're the living proof of success of that brian we're not dead yet not dead yet you're still going yeah yeah that's amazing okay um we've got 25 minutes left so let's see what else we have any and it was unless there was anything else to discuss about that which i don't think that was really it's important to say there is no license uh there's only social acceptance or i think david put it well you've got 100 people who can say no |
| 1:08:11 | so no one's out there handing licenses but what they are doing is uh you know by building social acceptance you can work to remove uh significant objections right i think that's worthy to what extent anyone brian or david uh do you think that telling us saying that you know that we've almost run out of road as it is you know that the the radius let's say confirmed about the radiative forcing um but uh and and people are saying uh peter wadham said that baron c is heating up seven times as fast as it should be and |
| 1:08:48 | aaron franklin this morning is saying you know greenland's melting faster than ever uh all these all this bad news doing to what extent does does you know impending doom that make any difference i think this comes back to the old organ donor program you know in the united states it used to be that you had to check the box when you got your driver's license if you wanted to donate organs and approximately 10 percent of the population would check the box and it was abysmal it wasn't really succeeding at all so then they |
| 1:09:19 | changed the law on the policy so they said you had to check the box if you did not want to have your organs donated and then that was 90 of the people went for that one and so when you get to the 90 then you know it just changes everything and so what we need to do either organically or by legislation uh get to the you know the opt out rather than the opt-in very interesting i i feel that well we saw from covet and masking and vaccines uh that that doesn't work but i think more importantly you tell people gloom |
| 1:09:54 | and doom and they don't they don't want to hear it if you're an oil if you're an oil company yeah you say look your child will be safe in this enormous vehicle or your child will be safe in bed at night thanks to gas right and that's the message people want to hear and telling them of something that's frightening or telling them that they're wrong yeah that they must suffer privation uh does not persuade anyone to change their behavior um you know they don't even tell you that the toothpaste has fluoride in it |
| 1:10:32 | they say that you buy this toothpaste and your children's teeth won't fall out or the people might my kids age buy this toothpaste and you'll get laid they know what to say to the audience they're talking about uh i can tell you telling people gloom and doom does not attract the interest of most audiences it just tells them to change the channel or go to a different website yeah i agree it's much better to have an attractive um aspiring aspiration a hope uh and um you know and to have it be an |
| 1:11:07 | attractive motivation and you saw this in the ukraine war sorry to cut you off right it's all about we need more coal we need more hydrocarbons no one said we need more windmills right even if were even planning to not i mean i couldn't believe they wouldn't keep the nuclear um plants running you know because there's less radiation emitted by the nuclear plants than there is by the coal yeah i know yeah it's germany you're talking about yeah i think germany might have great three three plants and you know let's |
| 1:11:46 | just hope they keep them running yeah yeah i think they might might have changed their minds although i thought they might be thinking about changing minds uh okay uh let's talk about about uh let's hear from you david actually if that's okay uh because we've just been talking about that so let's just keep it on is there anything else you want to say about what your team is working on david no i didn't i haven't i didn't really think about a coherent discussion i was just thinking about |
| 1:12:18 | some of the factors we'd already talked about yeah fine okay so let's leave that um who mentioned this that ron ron buyman talked about this carbonyl sulfide aerosol method yeah clyde was just uh something that the ron raised the other day and it's just interesting you know the the focus seems to be on the fact that it's gonna be far less expensive because you don't need aircraft to disperse it but you can disperse from the earth's surface and uh terrestrially and and it does the same job i guess as they say it rises up |
| 1:12:53 | to the to the stratosphere eventually and uh performs a similar role and um uh it what the effect on soils is if they're over supplied with sulfates i'm not sure this seems to be a very early study but uh i don't i'm not sure it really works so i'm interested in other's opinions on it i wouldn't have a clue friends i think uh they they choose cos because it's rather stable more stable than so2 and this process lasts rather long until it produces aerosols uh surface aerosols yes it sounds even |
| 1:13:45 | sorry john so it's admitted into the troposphere at low level uh or from a mountain top or somewhere but it's it's not ejected there's no energy being used to eject them to the stratosphere that that seems to be their their main selling point but i think they're coming in from the wrong end i mean the safety aspects and the efficacy should be studied as the primary reason for doing it i would have thought it's still going to form uh sulfuric acid right yeah it becomes that's the ants |
| 1:14:19 | yeah yeah exactly it was a hot it was a hard battle just to get rid of that but nature by itself of course it's also a suffering acid from from dms which is produced by the by the filter plankton questions how much question is how much yes question is how much maybe they they will produce a hundred times of that but but isn't the idea that that it's released and it drifts up into the stratosphere eventually no no no there is a barrier between so it's not that stable that it it will oxidize it'll become sulfuric |
| 1:15:11 | acid quite quickly then what yes but but if it is an aerosol it keeps in the in the atrosphere and possibly when you emit it in the tropics it also can reach to the uh possibly to the stratosphere because they have uh these um those if you have a monsoon big thunder clouds and so yeah thunderclouds there's cumulonimbus ones that take take the air so we're reducing the amount of sulfur in the uh troposphere by cutting down on uh shipping bunker fuel and we'd be increasing it by using carbonyl sulphate yeah |
| 1:16:00 | seems a bit strange it sounds hazard to me yeah but it's simple to take uh safari's fuel yeah clyde we have a hand raised oh sorry yeah who's got their hand raised oh john hello john hello hello just to say uh handsome uh james hansen has said that uh he expects the global warming rate uh to double as a result of the removal of uh so2 from the atmosphere due to decarbonisation yes so so i i've together with help with uh doug grant i don't think here today um we do do a schematic for temperature |
| 1:17:07 | which if anybody hasn't seen it please let me know because uh well i could just post it to the noac group if you'd like um would you like me to do that uh sorry i was just in the process of muting ron uh post to the ipcc did you say [Music] post it post it to uh to our email group yeah your group this thing from jim henson yes please yeah yeah he this this is not is this any different you know he sent an email a few months ago maybe two or three months ago wasn't it you know i sent him a question he wrote back he replied to me |
| 1:17:49 | remember that it's not that one is it or is it something since then um no you you sent something to him did you well i think i made some comment on the uh carbon removal group and jim hansen replied and we were all quite surprised and he said they were doing there was some paper in the process saying that previous estimates of of the cooling effect of uh solid ship tracks from the sulfur dioxide was underestimated and i think there's the thing but this paper was going to come out and say that the cooling effect is much |
| 1:18:29 | greater well we were hoping for a paper on the almost cooling effect and um i uh why don't you send it anyways no harm john sorry yeah doug was hoping that that um jim hansen would endorse our trajectories but he hasn't he's buckled down on decarbonization trying to make it a uh a cri a a criminal offense to uh to emit a carbon dioxide pollutant yeah well that's his attorney that's doing that and with others so we haven't seen any result from his model which would suggest that decarbonization |
| 1:19:14 | is i think it's rather a bad idea i don't think you can necessarily read that into it john he's only got so many hours in the day he's you know he may move to the other side i think there's a uh this is a a rather stark case of um cognitive dissonance where one part of your brain is is working on one model i wish he was here to argue with you uh john i wish he were accused him of cognitive dissonance i think he might have a thing or two to say about that i regard jim henson as a top smart guy |
| 1:19:56 | but there we go um but i take your point john yeah it does seem very contradictory what he's saying okay and what he's doing all right thanks manager it was great to see you and we didn't quite see you this time uh yeah manager is going yeah um i'm thinking about the time you have 10 minutes left was there any other thing what were we talking about yeah i have a minor follow-up on this noah thing and that is uh the 2021 article is pointing to a microbial source but can we preclude the terrestrial and submarine permafrost |
| 1:20:34 | as such a microbial source even albeit frozen um i'm somewhat concerned that this exponential signal we're seeing since 2006 is uh perhaps uh you know there's a permafrost component and rice fields and other things um perhaps um yeah but the rice fields and the bovine emissions haven't changed that much since 2000 whereas the amount of permafrost sublimating into methane has been changing exponentially and i just wonder if noah could be picking up on a permafrost signal it seems plausible to me john uh brian |
| 1:21:17 | certainly so it's very rather ominous given that there's about 1500 gigatons of permafrost methane frozen and given that you know that's about the amount that we've of carbon we've made in the ma atmosphere and a 20-year forcing of 80 to 100 it suggests that sublimating all the permafrost methane would result in a problem roughly two orders magnitude bigger than we have today i think that's uh i've seen that sort of thing written as well brian but well you're saying sublimating uh |
| 1:21:49 | permafrost methane this is yes i mean methane hydrates been that's beneath melting permafrost so it becomes exposed or do you mean microbial generation of methane in in permafrost which now hosts life you know microbes oh there's some of both i would say you've got a lot of carbon frozen as soon as it unfreezes um there'll be plenty of anoxic um yeah with energy i want to call it respiration um yeah i suppose anoxic processes producing more methane yeah it's a yeah yeah methanogenesis exactly yeah |
| 1:22:27 | yeah uh someone had their hand raised was it wrong who's ron you have your hand raised but i put you on mute so try to mute yourself are you there on maybe ron's not listening anymore or maybe he pressed his raised his hand by mistake um okay um well folks we might be finishing 10 minutes early i always think that's because i dominated the conversation too much and didn't climb sorry yeah yeah sorry i'm sorry to come in late but um i just did want to make an announcement that if folks could please |
| 1:23:15 | look at those documents the hpac documents because we do want to go over those uh that would be really good because one of them actually lays out a uh pretty uh pretty pretty good case i think for cooling are they in the email because we have ten minutes i can look at it now oh uh well i'm i'm running of course as usual but i will send you an email and yeah if you can but have you because if it's been sent already hpac yeah it's been sent to the hpac list by herb simmons ah yeah is it like that i i've got one like it's right to say |
| 1:23:57 | okay uh yeah this one i think it might be this one yeah so there's two documents there uh the second one is the more sort of you know technical scientific document and the first one is a more general document but if if people could just you know comment you know whatever you know any feedback would be greatly appreciated and at the meeting of course we'll go over this in a lot more detail that's on thursday uh this thursday at uh uh it's 3 30 chicago time but uh similar to the uh the noaa meeting time i think |
| 1:24:34 | okay no way yeah yeah no different no way okay this is not this silver lining okay we can't i can't no no no it's it's uh it's uh it's um uh documents for review uh hpac uh would like people to i don't know what what the the title was but it was just sent out today i came out today right yeah yeah this afternoon yeah okay okay i guess too much stuff ron i'm afraid that i can only do so much i'll i'll send it to you yeah thank you send it to the group please at night group yes yes i will absolutely thanks |
| 1:25:13 | thanks thank you sure someone else has their hand raised uh brian please yes um one uh approach to building social acceptance is to focus on ecosystems whether we're talking about regenerating sea ice and habitat for polar bears and walnuts or kelp forests or coral reefs or other ecosystems including terrestrial forest that provides a significant social acceptance so uh just one technique we've been using but i think we need to look at many approaches that become attractive and bring people over by default |
| 1:25:53 | moderating hurricanes might be socially acceptable as well do you think i agree yeah uh is david still with us yeah i am what do you think i mean i think you and brian i think in america i think you you people are i said i in my in my opinion like you're kind of further ahead and more acutely aware of this issue what what do you think about uh yeah i don't know what americans are i i i think in the next day or two the epa will be permanently strangled um by the supreme court that's coming up perhaps perhaps it's already happened |
| 1:26:36 | this afternoon what this can't be referring to i beg your pardon which case are you referring to with the epa uh uh i'll have to look up the name i can look it up basically the the story is they're gonna say that uh congress has no right to delegate any kind of decision making to bureaucracies so the epa cannot pass a rule uh controlling anything congress has to pass a law just for that and it's actually going to apply to all the bureaucracy probably um but it's an epa specific case that's concerning |
| 1:27:12 | carbon dioxide do you think that's what happened to head off that that uh that case about co2 as a pollutant david uh that was one what about three months ago uh we've seen yeah i think it might have been introduced a few months ago but uh it was sort of publicized much more recently within the papers and stuff yeah this case is called um uh uh let me just see the name of it west virginia it's uh west virginia versus epa and basically the fossil fuel producing states have sued to say that the federal government does |
| 1:28:07 | not have the authority to make any decisions over the climate at all that the executive branch cannot make any any rules whatsoever over the climate so i'm pretty much ready to scratch the us um as uh contributed to fixing any kind of climate problem um but your question was about public uh opinion and public opinion is still pretty strongly uh that uh there are more important problems right now than the climate i i think that's a big case here as well with the ukraine war and so forth yeah why can't you get gunman to shoot up the |
| 1:28:49 | the supreme court instead of schools you know they want to make sure the babies are born so they're a mortal shoot later that seems to be the plan um no they they quickly passed the law making it difficult to shoot supreme court yeah justices but schools they don't protect heading into the wrong part of the meeting and i think david might be trying for conspiracy to murder yeah um i don't think anyone they'll they'll put me in prison then deport me yeah oh folks anyway on that gloomy topic yeah |
| 1:29:31 | thank you everybody uh and see you in a couple of weeks and look forward to that email from you herb uh and yeah great thank you uh i'm gonna quote winston churchill when he said you can count on the americans to do the right thing after they tried everything else ron did you get some papers about making big um marine structures i sent them to you did they arrive um i'll i'll take a look and uh respond by email as soon as i find them okay if you want to have you know multi-kilometer diameter um things that this this could be a way to |
| 1:30:11 | do it excellent i look forward to checking that out we've um postulated up to a kilometer in diameter but uh multi-kilometers uh even more interesting yeah excellent thank you you've got you've got to make them in in water with something that can um be supplied with whatever material you want and then knit spider a big big fight yes exactly i think big spiders we're already working on that right now with tensegrity structures so i'll look forward to following up with you on that and i think there's a reason that |
| 1:30:44 | nature's uh largest creature in history is a blue whale you know supported by water so i think there's a good case for making larger structures in the water yeah um just while everyone's there i don't mind if you've had enough you disappear um herbert are you listening yes are you still open to working with us and helping us with our maths very very much so yes i'd love to be involved [Music] any way that it's possible okay so thank you very much so so i'll uh i'll email you sort of tomorrow then and we'll |
| 1:31:19 | we'll pick it up from there i'd look forward to that great thank you very much hope and thank you for your kind remarks at the beginning i thought it must have put you off the exact opposite okay everybody good night and see you in a couple of very best wishes to all thank you good night bye now good morning cheers john cheers back live bye hope did you want to talk to me friends you're on mute friends you're unmute uh cliff uh yeah uh a word about the the acidity of |